TL;DR: We tried to move the community because of moderatorial concerns, but fumbled how we went about doing so.

First and Foremost:

We’d like to formally apologize for springing this on you all out of nowhere, and for taking so long to respond to the backlash. With retrospect, we understand that we should have notified you all beforehand to create an opportunity to give us feedback. We understand that a lot of respect and trust was lost, and we expect it’ll take a lot of work and a lot of time before we can earn it back, but we would be grateful if y’all gave us that chance.

What happened, and why?

The primary issue that incited this was because we don’t fully agree with the admin’s moderation policies. By and large they do a great job and align with us on mod actions, but there have been several cases where we strongly disagreed, and our choices were overruled.

For example, 2 months ago, Kolanaki reached out to us via email and said they were banned from 196 for “playing the victim” and asked us why we banned him, but we didn’t. Moss talked to them and realized that the ban was unjust after reviewing the comment he was banned for. If he had never contacted us, we wouldn’t have known about the ban, and they would have still thought we banned them.

There were a few similar events in a short time frame, leading to a few posts/comments in the community about the heavier modding policies. It’s possible some posts/comments were misunderstood by Ada, or she interpreted things differently than we would have, but it led to some bans that we felt were indeed heavy-handed, and would not violate our rules in even the most uncharitable of interpretations. We have found that this is an ongoing trend when it comes to moderation of our community from the Admins. We oppose this because it leads to many users who otherwise mean well ending up alienated and removed for reasons that are frankly completely unfair. This is, in our opinion, counter to what we set out to build in our community.

It was made clear to us that it was their instance, and that we didn’t have a say in who would be banned and what would be removed. This is, of course, perfectly valid. It’s their instance, therefore it’s up to them to decide what goes, but we no longer wanted to be the ones seen as accountable for moderation actions we have no control over. For this reason, we wanted to transfer out of lemmy.blahaj.zone. As much as we wanted to stay in the LGBTQ instance, we couldn’t come to an agreement with Ada, so we talked to her about transferring out and got her blessing.

How we messed up

The most major failing on our part is, of course, that we didn’t announce the migration beforehand. Besides that, we also didn’t explain why we made the choices we made and only gave very vague answers. We avoided sharing the justification for our actions because we didn’t want to cause drama and/or exacerbate the situation, but this lack of substantiating our actions only caused the situation to worsen.

Going forward (if we may), we won’t make the same mistakes again. From now on, we will attempt to be as transparent as possible.

FAQ

Why we chose lemmy.world

Many people have been asking about why we moved to lemmy.world. It already hosts the majority of large communities and besides this uncomfortable level of centralization, it has also been somewhat controversial as of late. Despite that, we still chose lemmy.world due to the following reasons:

  1. Moss’s communication with the admins, and their agreement to let us moderate the community as we see fit. Ruud, after looking over our rules, agreed to abstain from taking admin action to curate or otherwise moderate our community, unless absolutely necessary.
  2. The instance is large enough to support traffic without performance issues (other instances like lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, and lemmy.dbzer0.com would have been fine too), and the instance has a certain degree of guaranteed longevity.
  3. I was given a list that was kindly made by the lemmy.world people as a part of our transfer detailing those who are banned on Blahaj.zone, but not on Lemmy.world, making moderation discrepancies much easier to clean up post-transfer.
  4. Our agreement with Ruud predated the now-rescinded policy changes
  5. It was, to the best of our knowledge, the most federated-with instance. We have come to understand that this is not necessarily the case.

Why not have another team take over the original 196?

This is a similar situation with what happened over on Reddit. 196 mods didn’t agree with admins and were eventually replaced (difference here is that we were not forced out, but chose to leave). As Lemmy was a large gathering spot for people fleeing Reddit, we felt it was better to try to keep the community together and move together. Having another team take over splits the community. The more fragmentation there is, the less longevity and volume of community each skew will have.

What about the possibility of more trolls, neoliberals, bad actors, sealions, and transphobes on Lemmy.world?

Another huge issue was that the mods and the community were not on the same page regarding lemmy.world, their admins, and their policies. We understand the concern about trolls/bad-actors/transphobes, but we feel well-equipped to handle these issues. In addition, we’ve been in contact with the lemmy.world admins for a while now, and they’ve assured us that they’d allow us to moderate our community however we saw fit. All this being said, we still failed to communicate that to the community before taking action, which has undermined any assurances that we have given after the fact. We cannot apologize enough for that.

What about the people who are using instances that are defederated from lemmy.world (e.g. Beehaw)

This is an unfortunate issue that we were not aware of at the time of transfer. We’re not sure what the solution is, but want to make our community as accessible as possible. Community solutions are welcome.

Did you migrate because of X? (addressing speculation)

  • We didn’t migrate due to anything related to neopronouns
  • We didn’t migrate due to us supposedly not wanting to use blahaj.zone lemmy accounts
  • We didn’t migrate due to us having friends who were banned from lemmy.blahaj.zone
  • We didn’t migrate due to us wanting to make the space less queer/leftist/etc
  • We didn’t migrate due to us getting secretly ousted by the Blahaj admin team

What now?

Well, we’re not sure. We could go back on our decision and stay on blahaj.zone, continue on lemmy.world, do both, or try something else. Truth be told, we don’t know what to do. For now, we will leave the comments open to civil community discourse, and choose our course of action from there.

Sincerely, Qaz, Rmbp, Greembow, A_Very_big_Fan, Peachy, and Moss.

  • moss
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    712 days ago

    Just wanted to chime in and say this was legitimately written by the entire mod team in a group google doc. This is not me using the royal we.

    • @[email protected]
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      212 days ago

      You’re modding a group of radicals. There’s a whole team. And, between you no one knows why radicals prefer distributed, duplicative grassroots structures. That’s really bad.

  • Zagorath
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    6112 days ago

    other instances like lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, and lemmy.dbzer0.com would have been fine too

    Ok. Why not lemm.ee or db0 then, given both of those are much less likely to affect users who do not have access to LW?

    This is an unfortunate issue that we were not aware of at the time of transfer

    That…shows that you are clearly not equipped to be running a large community in the fediverse. This is basic knowledge that you would have become aware of had you done even the most cursory amount of research or consultation with the community. It comes back to the problem of you springing this on the community without warning. It shows a complete lack of respect or regard for the community. If you didn’t know, ok, maybe that can be excused as just being happy in your own little bubble and not of consequence. But the fact that you never even cared enough to consider how it might affect your users is a major indictment upon you all.

    We’re not sure what the solution is, but want to make our community as accessible as possible. Community solutions are welcome.

    If you’re absolutely not willing to move back to blahaj, at least consider giving up on LW and moving to .ee. There is no solution to this problem while you remain on LW.

    Our agreement with Ruud predated the now-rescinded policy changes

    In the last thread you were saying that it was very much a last-minute thing, and that’s why Ada was not given more of a heads up. What’s the truth here? The full timeline?


    Before you write me off as a hater, I’d like you to know that my initial reaction to the news was pretty neutral. I enjoy posts in the 196 community and have posted a few times myself, but have never been super dedicated to it. I saw the move was happening and thought “a bit weird, but ok”. Then I followed the updates and your response to feedback. It was you throwing Ada under the bus in the comments, and demonstrating that you had failed to even consider how the community would feel about things, that turned me against this.

      • Zagorath
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        1312 days ago

        You’re quite literally correct. I’m pretty sure that was one of, if not the, first thing I wrote this morning.

        And yeah, I do think it was perhaps a little too strong. That specific quoted sentence, anyway. I still stand by most of the comment.

    • @[email protected]
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      3312 days ago

      yeah the way this was handled was shitty and amateurish. they say that they planned this for months, that they spent a whole bunch of time making sure that it would work smoothly, but ignored the fact that many of the 196 users would be defederated and effectively banned from their community. what did they consider? if they could moderate how they want on the new home instance and keeping the post count and subscriber count. it is pretty clear that they dont have the community in mind when they made these decisions, it seems mostly motivated by their own desires based around how they want to run their community, and not what the community wants, further demonstrated by their complete lack of communication about what was happening, and handwaving of issues being raised. gosh that was a run on sentence.

  • @[email protected]
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    4412 days ago

    Horribly handled and communicated, maybe dot world is a perfect fit for you guys after all 🤷‍♂️

  • @PugJesus
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    4112 days ago

    As a supporter of the move to Lemmy.world, I do also believe you should unlock original 196 and hand it over to whoever wants to mod it. Multiple communities on the Fediverse is not a bad thing, and while locking it was a sensible strategic decision to get the community to move, the level of backlash has made it untenable as a solution, and even a temporary lock is possibly more harm than good at this point.

    • qazM
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      12 days ago

      Why don’t you just want to unlock [email protected]

      Perhaps that’s the best option for now. I’ve started an internal vote.

      EDIT: It stalled at 2-2, and the other mods are offline, but I’m just going to count the community as the tiebreaker and open it anyway

      • also dont forget the

        let Ada organize the follow up, and then move to Lemmy.world if that’s what you prefer?

        part, not just the unlocking


        internal vote

        “internal votes” is what caused all this in the first place

        for now

        what does that even mean? unlock it and then maybe lock it again some other time?

    • mossOPM
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      -1512 days ago

      ??? I don’t think those two things are equivalent man

  • 100
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    2712 days ago

    if you cant mod a meme community perhaps you shouldnt?

    • mossOPM
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      -412 days ago

      this is just straight up not the case

      • finalarbiter
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        1912 days ago

        Thanks for continuing to prove that this is most definitely the case.

  • @[email protected]
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    1012 days ago

    The leadership team didn’t understand why we left Reddit or the distributed and duplicative grassroots solution of lemmy. It’s demonstrated in their authoritative attempt to move the community and choice of .world.

    They still don’t understand as demonstrated in the shallow excuses above. They’ve learned nothing. They’re not fit to lead.

  • @[email protected]
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    812 days ago

    People seriously need to relax. Both the mods and the users. Just forget about it and continue shitposting in whatever community, it’s not even worth being upset about. Shit happens, nobody is perfect, and it’s fucking c/196, everyone should just calm the FUCK down!

    Obligatory

    I’m perfectly calm, dude.

        • Blaze (he/him)
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          12 days ago

          Nice personal attack. Curious statement as you also had to create your own apology post recently about a drama you yourself created.

          Edit: thank you mods for prompt action!

          • @[email protected]
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            -112 days ago

            That wasn’t a personal attack, it was a simple observation and turn of phrase. Would it be a personal attack if I were to call you a fish out of water?

            That wasn’t an apology post lol? I wasn’t apologizing whatsoever in that entire thread, I was asking for the opinions of people who aren’t obsessed with creating drama on Lemmy.

    • Blaze (he/him)
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      [email protected] is already more active daily than [email protected] , so this could potentially mean that members found a new community for the future.

      It would still be nice for the community to get back the old one as the name was easier to type.

      Also, your situation seems different as the admin having issue with community members. Here, the members don’t have issues with the admin, it’s between the mods and the admin.

      Reminds more of the [email protected] where the mods of [email protected] wanting to channel all users to their new community.

      After a while, they had to reopen [email protected] , and now the two communities coexist.

        • Blaze (he/him)
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          12 days ago

          It’s also remarkably dismissive.

          Sorry about that, I wasn’t sure you were aware of the information, I had to check myself today to know about it. It wasn’t the intention, I’ll rephrase.

          Edit: done, hope it’s better.

          However, that does nothing to detract from my main point.

          The potential issue with saying “people can just move to another community” just gives the impression that communities are a power trip away from being taken from users. I had a power tripping example as well with [email protected] , and while similar to you [email protected] is now much more active, it still took me a while and a lot of energy to rebuild an equivalent community.

          I would definitely have appreciated if the admin at the time had stepped in, but I also get why some admins don’t want to deal with communities. Tough topic.

          • Stamets
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            12 days ago

            Removed by mod

            • Blaze (he/him)
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              112 days ago

              Understood and thank you <3

              You’re welcome, sorry again 🙏

              because the community drive was already there to move to another location that was more in line with their views.

              Indeed, very good point. Indeed, if the whole community is actively looking for a new home, it will be easy to move.

              We’re in a different situation with [email protected]. It was created due to power tripping by the admin on [email protected] , but never on the community directly itself (except instance bans), so most of the people don’t really see the need to change. Hopefully PicardManeuver and PugJesus definitely help to get people to the new one, but it’s not a clear cut like the others

                • @PlasticExistence
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                  312 days ago

                  I watched all of Firefly, and it’s possible that I just need to rewatch it to see the appeal, but I just didn’t connect with it. I’m not saying it’s bad, but there are too many unexplored territories out there to force myself to try to like something I’ve experienced before.

    • @[email protected]
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      312 days ago

      I’m inclined to agree with most of this, and while I feel like parts of this have been poorly communicated and executed, I do feel like most folks care and want the community to flourish. We’re all just people, and sometimes we communicate ineffectively, but like you, I hope all this energy goes toward creating and growing, and making a positive change.

  • @FelixCress
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    Moving to Lemmy.world is probably the worst possible choice if you are after quality of moderation.

    1. They don’t care about own rules - they ban things they personally dislike. Yes, I am talking about admins.
    2. They NEVER respond to any messages regarding removed posts, bans etc.

    I really wish there was an instance where the admins would leave moderation to mods and would simply enforcing proper moderation (ie in line with the community rules) and removing illegal content, full stop.

    • mossOPM
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      111 days ago

      fortunately, that is all also under the domain of our mod team. I’m proud to say that we’ve yet to have an emailed ban request go more that four hours without a response.

  • ben
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    211 days ago

    I’m probably in the minority here but I’m pretty indifferent to the move, although getting feedback and hosting a poll for deciding where to move to would have been smart. Not doing that seems a bit shortsighted but I imagine you’re well aware of that at this point.

    At the same time though it rubs me the wrong way that Ada pinned a message to the other 196 pointing to another community after saying she was respecting the mods decision to leave and would keep the other community closed. Like technically that’s not a lie, but it very much feels against the spirit of the request.

      • ben
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        111 days ago

        I didn’t say members were cattle, and I didn’t say people couldn’t make a new community.

        I just said it rubs me the wrong way to pin a message to the community pointing to another that the original mods aren’t involved with after agreeing with those mods to respect their wishes.

        It’s within her rights to do so, it just doesn’t feel right to me.

    • mossOPM
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      011 days ago

      yeah. It’s pretty emblematic of the struggles we’ve been having with her behind the scenes.

  • subignition
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    111 days ago

    I don’t have a horse in this race, just chiming in to say that putting a Joker face on SHODAN besmirches the good name of System Shock and you should be ashamed

    • mossOPM
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      this is an old profile picture that I’ve kept because lemmy.world keeps giving me a json error whenever I try to change it. also, the caption that is cut out in my profile picture is “white people when there’s cheese at the function” neither of these are relevant to what you just said but I’m glad you know now what you did not before

  • @Squorlple
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    012 days ago

    I don’t know where the other users are coming from with the lack of communication about the move; I’ve been banned from the blahaj instance and even I knew the mods were planning on moving to lemmy.world. And even though I’m happy I can interact with the community again (or at least a splinter cell of it) and that it is no longer restrained by a select few blahaj rules/admin actions, I still don’t think lemmy.world is a perfect home for the community. Albeit, I don’t know what instance would be best for either the community or myself, but it seems like within the past few years I’ve been having to jump ship from imperfect social media or forum sites too often and that overly-pickiness is isolating.

    • @[email protected]
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      712 days ago

      and even I knew the mods were planning on moving to lemmy.world

      You’re an exception, because numerous 196 users and visitors clearly had no idea about the move. In fact, even the mods say they failed to announce the move, right in this thread where we’re commenting:

      The most major failing on our part is, of course, that we didn’t announce the migration beforehand.