It’s like every time there’s a war everybody forgets how fucking long they take. WW2 took six years. The Vietnam War took almost 20 years, same with the Afghanistan War. Anybody expecting anything solid within the next couple years is delusional. Ukraine is in it for the long haul.
That’s not strictly true. On the short end, there was the six-day war. On the long end, there was the hundred years’ war.
Putin was clearly aiming for the short option, but then I suppose most belligerents usually are.
I’d actually love to see a graph that shows the distribution of lengths of various wars
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The Anglo-Zanzibar War lasted less than an hour
‘Gunboat diplomacy’ isn’t very diplomatic.
Dude took the low end and said “fuck that we’ll do it twice as fast.”
The good news is I don’t think Russia can continue to sustain these kind of losses for 199 more years.
Neither can Ukraine…
And Russia expected their little venture to be done in days.
It was never supposed to turn into a real war. They wanted to assassinate Zelenskyy put some Russian plant in as president, annex some more land and call it a night. Obviously Zelenskyy survived and the rest is history.
“No plan survives first contact with the enemy”
“Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth."
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We can hope Putin dies from being an old fuck and Russia gives up
The US is on its last legs though. It badly needed this win. The US falls before Putin dies.
What drugs are you on and where can I get some?
Clearly hasn’t compared the US and Chinese economic data
Lol literally every single line of that post is absolutely nonsense.
The US is on its last legs though.
Lol in what universe? By way metric is the most powerful nation in the world limping along?
It badly needed this win.
If we badly needed a win we wouldn’t be sending 30+ year-old surplus gear. Ukraine would have F-35s instead of the air force trying to pawn off A-10s because we’re retiring them and don’t want to break them down.
The US falls before Putin dies.
Unless he’s a Highlander there’s no fucking chance.
I always take a peek at the comment history when I see things like this. And this guy basically just woke up to say things like this in one specific thread.
I’m no longer a mod of anything these days, but if I had a mod-hammer I’d send you into the next galaxy.
Frontlines were actually moving, especially in the Eastern Front. Not so much in China and the Pacific, though.
That’s because it isn’t really about any particular military objective, it’s about creating business for the war industry.
“We’ll fight til the last Ukrainian!” - libs
“We shouldn’t help the rape victim and they should hope that it’s over quickly. Also, it’s actually not rape, it’s a special sexual operation and they deserved it.” - Tankies
And shelling civilians in the Donbas is presumably the equivalent of putting on a nice dress in your metaphor?
Make extremely inappropriate and wrong rape comparison ⇒ Accuse anyone who disagrees of being a rape apologist ⇒ FUCK TANKIES!
Extremely normal and sound logic there, definitely not just vibe-based emotional manipulation.
Ask Prigozhin whether that shelling actually happened. You swallowed Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.
OHCHR estimates that between mid-April 2014 and 31 May 2016, at least 9,404 people, of which up to 2,000 are civilians, have been killed as a result of the conflict. The vast majority of civilian casualties, recorded on the territories controlled by the Government of Ukraine and on those controlled by armed groups, were caused by the indiscriminate shelling of residential areas, in violation of the international humanitarian law principle of distinction.
Na better believe Prigozhin, that guy never told a lie or said anything that was totally wrong.
What do you believe your source to say, exactly? That Ukraine shelled indiscriminately? If so, you should read it again.
Yes it says that exactly, unless you think the “armed groups” shelled themselves.
Funny how if you’re against another endless war you’re a tankie and support Putin…
I’m neither a tankie nor I support Putin. But I also don’t support NATO and the Empire.
But just as a note, most “tankies” don’t support Russia and know Putin is a conservative capitalist. I mean he is the direct result of the dismantling of the USSR by internal revisionists (tsarists and capitalists) and the CIA.
But again, it’s the Iraq war all over again. And you libs are doing THE SAME THING. It’s hilarious.
There’s a load of things I could say, but they would all be pointless, so I’m going to say this. It would be less depressing if you were actually being paid by the Russians.
EDIT: Which, you know, is not actually out of the question.
“Being against war means you are our enemy!” - the “pacifist”, “anti-war”, liberal.
it’s the Iraq war all over again
Oh so you’re against the invasion after all?
More than you guys it seems. You’re all salivating at the idea of Russians dying and this war never ending.
I’d be happy if Russia would simply send its soldiers home.
Me too. We take Putin out, return the USSR, and then we dismantle the far-right apparatus in Ukraine as well. We close all US military bases and shut down NATO.
We then impose on the US strict international laws to never have a military, to interfere or invade another nation again, or it’s dismantled and given to all 3rd world countries it fucked over the past 100 years.
Putin could stop this war and thus Russians from dying at any minute. He’d just have to give up on imperialism.
„Libs“ we’re against the Iraq war. It divided the US population and the whole western world. Never listened to American Idiot?
I’m confused. You want us to protest against one sort of imperialism, but not the other?
I think you’re remembering incorrectly bro… After 9/11, if you didn’t support invading any vaguely Muslim country you were a traitor. Fucking libs on TV were cheering for killing Saddam and invading Iraq, dismissing any attempts to question why would that even make sense as weak-spined traitorous behaviour.
Also, how can you say that while you support a never ending war in Ukraine?
Is Russia imperialist? Yes. Is this invasion a tragedy? Yes. Did it happen, and will continue to happen for a long time in good part because of the US? Fuck yes as well.
I don’t support Russia invading or winning the war. I don’t support NATO breaking its promises and meddling in Eastern Europe propping up Nazis.
The US Empire is directly responsible for Putin, in the first place. And it’s now directly responsible for the extreme right in Ukraine.
What anyone who’s actually against war wants is for the US Empire to fall and NATO to be dismantled. For Putin to fall and the Russian people to have freedom again. For the Nazis in Ukraine to not have power anymore.
If you support sending billions in weapons to Ukraine (as fucking debt, Ukraine will be in debt to the US and Europe for centuries…), if you support war games in South Korea, Taiwan, if you complained when Biden left Afghanistan… you’re literally a war hawk.
You blathering fool. I’m not your bro and never will be.
When you see a school bully who fights a smaller kid who doesn’t want to give up his lunch money, what do you do? You are the kind of person shouting at the victim to comply to avoid any further bloodshed, right? You’re fucking filth. I think I even watched a Star Trek episode about your fucking kind, lol.
Just for your information: NATO has nothing to do with this. Other than being a scapegoat of course. Quite the opposite, if Ukraine was part of NATO, this war would never happened. Why do you think Poland and the Chech Rebublic were so eager to join it? NATO is a defense pact. But I know, people like you don’t care. NATO is the big boogie man you need to justify your political views.
And no, I don’t remember incorrectly. The Bush regime was republican. They faked evidence to attack Iraq. The were huge demonstations and turmoil Google the Dixie Chicks, listen to American Idiot. I’m not american. I’m german. We were one of the countries who were part of a so called “axis of evil” because we didn’t agree with the war. Shut the fuck up.
I was always pretty left leaning. Never liked US-Imperialism since I got 16 and realised Tom Clancy Novels were pretty one-sided. But if supporting ukraine means I’m a Hawk, so be it. All I know is, I don’t want to be on your side!
We were one of the countries who were part of a so called “axis of evil”
Slight correction, no, they didn’t go that far. We’re “Old Europe”.
It was also when they renamed French Fries to Freedom Fries to protest the French being, well, French, as if the French wouldn’t already be constantly doing that. (Meanwhile Belgium was hoping someone would notice them).
Your comment truly reeks of “I’m pretty left leaning” lmao
Funny how pacifists are the first to cry when someone hits them.
Let’s not ruin pacifism, self-defense can be a form of it
pacifism /ˈpasɪfɪz(ə)m/ noun the belief that war and violence are unjustifiable and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means.
How is that funny
*support
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There’s a lot of angry liberals replying to your post, so I thought I’d link a great video on how/why the war in Ukraine came to be:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8&si=gaMRzFwo5JP5RzeD
This channel is leftist but they aren’t communists, as far as I know.
Tldw: This war was completely avoidable. Had the US/NATO kept its promise to not expand eastward none of this would have happened. Even Biden said that 25 years ago. Americans groomed certain Ukrainians for political office, and prevented others from running. There was an opportunity to end the war last year on somewhat decent terms for Ukraine, but Boris Johnson rushed in to stop it from happening, promising massive support. But war exhaustion has caught up and Ukraine is running out of people, and western leaders are already starting to call for the end of the war — except this time it will be on russias terms and Ukraine is going to get fucked. Big western capitalists have had their fingers in this pie because there’s a lot of money to be made in the country. That’s it.
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that Putins invasion was a horrific, imperialist move. Any commie you see protesting the war isn’t doing it because they support Russia (Russia is a capitalist country), they’re doing it because they don’t support NATO. We are often the makers of our own enemies here in the west. Viet Cong, Taliban, ISIS, and Russia were all created or shaped by western (mainly US) policies.
Seems like to you being a lib means not falling for badly researched, one-sided videos?
You didn’t watch the video did you? They don’t mention anything that
All you liberals give cons a lot of shit for being bloodthirsty war hawks but you froth at the mouth at the thought of war too. You’ll look at situations like what’s happening in Gabon and Niger, say “wow the French are fucked and they kind of deserve it for what they did to those countries”, and then develop an amazing blind spot for western imperialism in Eastern Europe.
Obviously this war shouldn’t have happened. Obviously Putin is an asshole. Obviously what’s happening in Ukraine needs to be stopped.
We (the west) made our own monster though.
All you liberals give cons
All this my team, your team rhetoric…
Honest question, but how many times a day do you think about events and try to fit them into one of these two categories? At what point do you start using these terms interchangeably for good and evil?
These days, I try to skip posts from people who crossed that line. Left, right or centre. If someone has limited their mental capacity to binary decisions, it’s not worth arguing with them, because the answer to everything will always be “my team”.
Judging by the tl;dw that video is hitting bingo on this one.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=wjU-ve4Pn4k
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I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Thanks I’ll watch it when I’m home from work. Right now it looks like it’s just some guy talking, whereas the video I linked only talks about things that are public knowledge. I haven’t watched yours yet though.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8&
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I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Libs gonna lib man…
The comment threads here are weird. Who, in their right mind, would ever support a country like Russia? It’s mind blowing.
Tankies.
BRICS. Even if they don’t necessarily support Russia it may just be an opportunity to take shots at the West.
Tankies claim to not be supporting Russia but only point out issues with Ukraine and believe every bit of info that comes out of Russia.
It’s a whole subculture. I don’t know, I can think of weirder conspiracy theories with a following.
Hexbear.net is a Russian nationalist instance… They’ve grown up under Putin’s cencorship and state media brainwashing.
It’s funny seeing the replies to your comment crying about “not brigading” but then the vast majority of the comments in this post come from hexbear users commenting tankie shit
It’s almost as if they completely lack self-awareness.
Easy way to trigger them:
Ahem…
“Human Rights”
Interesting, I’m not seeing the hexbears… has my instance blocked them or has hexbear blocked me?
It’s kinda a nothing of value lost kinda situation, just curious about why I’m not seeing them any more.
Yea, they’re defederated from your instance. You can check it out in the instances list of each instance under “blocked”, here’s yours: https://lemmy.ca/instances
Ah cool, thanks!
So that means they see my posts but I don’t see theirs?
YepI think they don’t see yours either, but you can still go check out the cacophony in their hexden if morbidly curious: https://hexbear.net/post/475665?scrollToComments=falselol
On second thought, let’s not go to Hexbear, ‘tis a silly place
Well I might be moving instances…
The moron brigadie is getting old.
Thank you for your sacrifice, now we can just mass block them :)
Apparently the thread’s got 117 comments, but only yours is showing. Don’t they have anything better to do? Seriously…
Apparently no 🤷
Everyone point & laugh at the sad tankie in this thread.
Damn we don’t see them on blahaj :<
Lucky
Ignorant
Has blahaj banned hexbear?
I can always tell when I’m browsing Lemmy from my lemm.ee account vs lemmy.world by the sheer number of tankies spouting nonsense.
Any actual rebuttal or just gonna roll out the usual libshit jab and run along? America has blood on its hands for a lot of things, it found out once and might find out again if it isn’t careful.
What exactly do you think it found out?
A shitload of oil
That if you spend decades destabilising a region in the name of oil, occasionally the people that are getting shit on will do something about it.
Okay but how did the US find out?
What do you think 9/11 was?
I think 9/11 was a terrorist attack by a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist organization motivated by Bin Laden issuing fatāwā against America for stationing troops in Saudi Arabia and for supporting Israel. I think Bin Laden stating that he believed that it was a justified attack because of America’s support for Israel points pretty solidly at the motivation behind the attacks:
“…it was a response to injustice, aimed at forcing America to stop its support for Israel…”
Also this from his video where he admits that he was behind the attacks and says that he was motivated by Israel bombing Lebanon
“…it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted…”
Interested in why you think oil had anything to do with 9/11. The destabilizing countries for oil stuff mostly came after 9/11. Middle Eastern hatred for America was mainly fueled by our support for Israel, and partially because Saudi Arabia had American military bases. Oil was not an interest to these terrorist groups until after Iraq.
Sources for those quotes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1729882.stm
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2004/11/1/full-transcript-of-bin-ladins-speech
America was there for the oil, the destability came as a result and that came well before 9/11. Anyway, it’d be great if they’d stop meddling in everyone’s business for their own selfish reasons and that includes the endless NATO sabre rattling under the guise of fReEdOm.
Make yourself like the USSR and make yourself scarce.
Somewhere in the Pentagon there surely must be a series of rooms isolated for this war. In them intelligence is gathered, counterparts in Ukraine can be in instant contact, resources from both armies are tracked, tactics are formulated, simulations are run. How do I know this? Because this would be too good of a learning opportunity to pass up.
And those folks ain’t talking.
All those folks in the 50+ age group that grew up with “Russia is enemy #1” are probably cycling through waves of intense work and prolonged orgasm.
I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the first things considered in strategizing any armed conflict is whether they want Russia and China to know that we have X or are capable of Y. Russia has shown their hand. If they could do more, they would have by now.
It has also taught NATO that Russia is still in the barbaric tactics mindset. Hospitals, schools, churches, shipping centers - they’re all valid targets. If Russia wants a position, they’ll level the entire town. That certainly changes the plans, of anyone thought they would abode by the Geneva Conventions.
All those folks in the 50+ age group that grew up with “Russia is enemy #1” are probably cycling through waves of intense work and prolonged orgasm.
The ones that haven’t suddenly decided that Russia is our best friend all of a sudden for some reason that I still can’t figure out. This is even considering that Russia was found to have been paying out bounties on dead American soldiers, or that they had people assassinated in the UK. Certainly it should be a disqualifier that Russia isn’t a true Democracy and had Putin’s political opponents jailed. Two Democracies won’t directly start a conflict against each other, but that doesn’t hold up between Democracies and non-Democracies.
My hope is that as Russia runs out of money and organization to fund overseas psyops, the sheen will wear off.
My hope is that as Russia runs out of money and organization to fund overseas psyops, the sheen will wear off.
Same, feels like the democracies of the world really got caught with their pants down by authoritarian operatives and their LLMs on social media.
Putin will only run out of money once the price of oil nosedives.
That won’t happen because Saudi Arabia has been squeezing oil output to keep the price high because they need the money for their countries transformation to a horror Show (different discussion required there) and they basically keep squeezing until the US gives them a whole lot of concessions that they don’t want to…
The Russians have less tactics and capabilities than NATO thought. Now it is a matter of how quickly they can be overwhelmed should it come to it. Their big problem is mid level command.
And what they do have was built and developed by the Soviets.
It has also taught NATO that Russia is still in the barbaric tactics mindset.
Oh those backwards Russians, still stuck in the past, where they were just a bunch of barbarian hordes. I assume the West, by contrast, has developed a civilized kind of warfare, as befitting their superior civilized culture? That’s what you’re saying, right?
The civilized West would never… oh yeah they would and they did, repeatedly, and it was worse actually in e.g. Iraq. So all this “barbarism” shit is just racism with no basis in reality.
Or both sides suck and all war is bad, and no one should attack sovereign countries
Russia is still using barbaric tactics, according to the person I replied to. This implies that barbarism is typical (and backwards) of Russia, like that racist trope about barbaric Mongol hordes. It also implies that someone else (presumably NATO, which they mention) isn’t using barbaric tactics, which is blatantly untrue.
I don’t understand how what you wrote is a addressing my post? What’s your point?
Has Russia been bombing civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine?
Please note, I am asking nothing about NATO or America. I agree, the US has committed atrocities in other countries at war. I’m asking specifically if Russia has bombed civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine.
So it’s not racist to say Russia is still in a barbaric mindset, because they are bombing apartment buildings in Ukraine? Is that it? Even though the way it was phrased implies that barbarism is typical of Russia and its history, and also falsely implies NATO isn’t barbaric and isn’t doing the same thing, and it’s a well-known racist trope?
This person’s comment exhibits the common double standard of the good civilized nations vs. the uncivilized primitives bullshit, which is about the oldest racist narrative there is.
I didn’t say anything about the people. Every Russian person I have met is super nice.
Governments though, they suck. Governments bomb apartment buildings full of people. These particular governments are barbaric.
I think it is important to acknowledge that both the US government and the Russian government are responsible for terrible atrocities. It is not racist to say that.
the whole world is sending people to become veterans so they can return with their experience and become trainers.
Haters gonna hate. Still though, they’ll need to be cordial if some of these critics are also paying Ukrainian bills. Being rude is the fast track to falling out of favor with foriegn taxpayers.
They’re tired and weary from the onslaught of war fringe to safe their country from Putins aggression. Any dig at their progress is a dig at morale that spreads not only through the ranks, but also to the general public. There is a time for constructive criticism, but that should be done in private with actual solutions offered by those criticizing. I understand their needs to be some decorum but you can’t blame them for what I would consider a mild retort as their countrymen die trying to retake their land everyday.
Well said.
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Good for Kyiv. Those armchair generals should shut up and fight if they think things are going slowly.
IMO these critics are used to air superiority which Ukraine doesn’t have.
Regardless being what it is, I wonder why a few A10s couldn’t be leased to provide air support.
Its a plane with little to no cutting edge technology, perfect for ground support and anti armor and entrenched positions.
I agree and have heard stories of Ukrainians already training on them. But, I wonder if depleted uranium ammo might be a problem.
In the sense that is a controlled ammunition or a banned one?
That brings to mind the fragmentation bombs.
I think there are laws which would prohibit the export of depleted uranium
Yet.
It’ll take some 6 months but then they’ll start having air support and soon air superiority.
However, Ukraine doesn’t have 6 months. They don’t know how the US election will go, it they will still have an ally in the US. They MUST press on so into the meat grinder they go.
US election is more than a year away though.
Yeah and they’ll need every minute of it to get to a point where the cjjan ico Russia out. F16 jets won’t come at.keast for another 6 months, they can’t sit on their hands until then, so until then, the meat grinder it is…
I wish we would just go ahead and give ATACMs. It would certainly speed things up.
I’m following the combat activities (the actual combat, not high level strategic stuff). It’s all mines, mines, mines and then some trench warfare.
No amount of ATACMS can do anything about that. You still have to advance slowly, figure out where the mines are, clean them up or move around them and then take the trenches.
Drones can do a whole lot more good for a whole lot less.
Where do you follow that?
/r/combatfootage on reddit. But you can also do it on twitter by following OSINT accounts (and you can combine the two). I just couldn’t deal with the constant twitter BS anymore. They both mostly have “second hand” sources. First hand are telegram accounts, but I rather receive it filtered and sorted by votes, so I never went that far.
There’s also a few Lemmy communities but they either are completely Ukrainian or have very little post activity compared to Combatfootage.
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Have you ever heard of the word “logistic”?
Bro, can you please talk to me like I’m a normal human being?
BooOOOOoooo
“drones AND f16 and ATACMS”
Yaaay
I think that once the F16 training is completed, it will really change the face of the battle field. I assume we are giving them jdams so they will be capable of striking hundreds of miles into occupied territory.
Aren’t there only a handful of Uke pilots that knew english well enough to do the training? I’m all for sending Ukraine whatever they ask for, but I doubt F-16s will turn the tide
The F-16 will be able to sniff out AA and other ground targets from far away. It will also allow Nato to gift more advanced missiles like JDAM. https://youtu.be/8G7fr3MonQY
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So 10 years?
Breaching those lines was never going to be quick, but once breached the line will move quicker.
The line doesn’t need to move quicker, and Ukraine moving slowly and shoring up every meter they take is going to work out better long term. They aren’t on a march to invade their lost territory, they are on a march to the Azov sea to cut Russia’s only remaining land access to Crimea.
They are building a wall of men and weapons and once that reaches Azov they only have to defend it - and Ukraine are very good at defence.
Then the only way Russia has to get anything to Crimea is the Kerch bridge which is almost inevitably going to be destroyed.
Depends how deep the lines are. They have breached the first line at some points. However as per ukrainians, after the first line is the second line and so on. Russia knows how to make deep defences and anywhere, where they lose one line, they will adjust and start added more lines to the rear to compensate for the lost line. First line lost, second line is now first line, third line is second and so on and add the new Nth line, since the old Nth is now Nth-1 line.
It will be a slow slug and battering ram fest, unless Russian army morale breaks/ supplies exhaust and they run.
I saw a WSJ article yesterday saying they’ve been the final defense line
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Nearly three months since launching a much vaunted counteroffensive using hundreds of billions of dollars of Western military equipment, Ukraine has recaptured more than a dozen villages but has yet to penetrate Russia’s main defences.
Stories in the New York Times, Washington Post and other news organisations last week quoted U.S. and other Western officials as suggesting the offensive was falling short of expectations.
Ukrainian commanders say they are moving slowly on purpose, degrading Russia’s defences and logistics to reduce losses when they finally attack at full strength.
After months of fighting their way through heavy minefields, Ukraine’s forces have finally reached the main Russian defensive lines in recent days, south of the village of Robotyne which they captured last week in Western Zaporizhzhia region.
They are now advancing in an area between the nearby villages of Novopokropivka and Verbove, looking for a way around the anti-tank ditches and rows of concrete pyramids known as dragon’s teeth that form Russia’s main fortifications visible from space.
Russia is also facing the aftermath of a mutiny two months ago by Wagner, a private army that had formed the main attack force of its own winter offensive earlier this year.
The original article contains 801 words, the summary contains 197 words. Saved 75%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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Not the correct response to say to those who hold the purse strings to your war chest. Especially one particular country whose political tide can turn and drown you.
Whoa! What news!
