Or maybe they will launch Win 12 with optional TPM support.
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business, many people are still on Win 10 with no intention to switch, since their motheboard does not support TPM and do not want to upgrade PC / waste PCI-E slot on TPM extension.
After using Windows for 30+ years now (since Windows 1), this is one of the straws finally pushing me into Linux.
I’m running 10, but without a TPM, can’t go to 11. So sad. Not.
Honestly 7 was the last decent OS they made. In my opinion the good OS’s were NT4 (game changer), 2000, XP, 7. They can keep the rest.
You can use the Rufus USB flashing tool with the Windows 11 iso and it will remove the TPM requirement and others.
Rufus is the shit, love Rufus.
It’s pretty brilliant!
Yeah I have windows 11 on multiple computers without secure boot or tpm enabled
This breaks your ability to get security updates on win11 though right?
Windows Update gets turned off yes.
But you wait say 6 months and then it back on, Do all updates and then run the playbook again (after it’s been hopefully updated)
Don’t do this. Running unpatched software is a recipe for disaster.
Not always. Windows has a built in delay function. And business often hold back while testing is done.
Waiting 6 months is fine to let improvements come out and fix any bugs previous updates might have introduced.
If something major comes out that needs patching immediately, since we’re all tech heads and have our nose in the news constantly, then you find out about it and update there and then. No biggy.
6 months no patches?
Yeah… Sounds like a great idea that all non-tech users should be using /s
But then you’ve got Windows 11… shudder
Then you run Windows AME with the Revi playbook 😜
I prefer Windows RG!
Ah yes, memories!
Oh that’s neat. Thanks!
3.1 and 98se were pretty decent at the time too.
Yea, 3.11 was a significant change. It was still just dos with a shell.
A usable shell, which was quite new for the time.
You mean 98se? 3.11 was more than a shell with all the updates. It had a 32bit preemptive subsystem.
95 was 3.11 with a good gui. At release there were better guis for 3.11 than 95’s like Pubtech and Norton Desktop.
Did you know that windows XP had a feature to enable the old progman gui 3.11 had, I used that for a long while till they took it out in an update.
3.11 with win32s
Oh windows 2000 how I miss thee.
I honestly think it’s the best OS they released. Shame so many games would throw a shitfit at the time because it reported it was Windows NT (rightfully so).
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All the current major distros of linux require TPM.
TPM prevents users from downloading random kinder eggs that install ransomware. Any business that disables TPM is crazy.
I’d like to see how you disable tpm on 2010s thinkpad where tpm don’t even exist
Why do you say a TPM prevents users from running malicious software? As far as I know that’s not really what they’re used for.
If I was not using my PC for gaming also, I would probably say fuck them and be on Linux too. But gaming on Linux is cancer.
But gaming on Linux is cancer.
Your information is outdated
Gaming on Windows just works, gaming on Linux can work but might be problematic with some hardware (as is the case with OP based on another comment they made), let’s not pretend it’s as easy.
I probably wouldn’t call it cancer, seems quite loaded, but gaming on Linux still has its snags even if performance on it its better. Like you and OP said, hardware is a big issue, but also some gaming-oriented creature comforts like a proper platform for recording/screenshotting. Steam has screenshotting but not recording AFAIK, Yes, OBS exists, but let’s be real - it’s clunky to set up because it’s not meant to be a game recorder, it’s meant to be broadcasting software. On Windows, it will detect a running game automatically and let you record. Someone did send me another piece of software that’s simpler, but it doesn’t support Wayland. The transition from X11 to Wayland is affecting a lot of software like this, and Windows just doesn’t have this issue.
I still don’t really understand the reason for switching to Wayland, especially since it sounds like it’s still rather half baked even after all this time
As far as I know, the protocol is pretty much standardised and it’s now up to the desktop environments to support and implement it, and that transition took a lot of time. GNOME has already been there and on its way to winding down X11 support, KDE has also been building up its Wayland support too. Waydroid (Android container software) requires it, and Valve uses it for Gamescope on SteamOS too iirc, to give games a more predictable place to render themselves on. Everyone’s got a kick up the ass with regards to Wayland support recently, but for smaller, independent/non-corp backed or niche software, of course, it’s gonna take a bit longer.
More than it being half baked, it’s that is not a drop in replacement. It works differently, on purpose. So DEs, apps and even drivers (looking at you Nvidia) need to make changes to adapt to it.
For example apps that user screen sharing had to be reworked, because X11 allowed any app to just see the screen without any user action (I think Windows also does this, Android and iOS require at least a one time permission), but Wayland doesn’t allow that as it’s a security/privacy risk.
I guess I really should dig into it and understand it better… It and systemd aren’t going away so I should just bite the bullet and learn them
It’s kinda like IPv6.
Having recently switched myself I actually have experienced less issues and better game performance from Linux than I did on Windows, at least with the games I play and the hardware I have.
Definitely not what I would call cancer
“at least with the games I play”
As mentioned in a recent article that was shared around here, for the games that work on Linux performance on average is 17% better, for the games that don’t work on Linux, performance is infinitely better on Windows 😛
For sure, but these days the main offenders are online multiplayer games with restrictive anti-cheats.
I would go so far as to say if those specific types of games are not your thing you aren’t likely to experience any issues gaming on Linux.
I’m sure there are exceptions, but every time I think “oh this game for sure won’t work” I have eaten my words.
And it’s like a night and day difference from the last time I tried to do this about a year and a half ago. The progress I’ve seen is almost more impressive than the performance gains. 🤷
But if you switch to Linux for gaming, and the game you want to play doesn’t work… Well it’s not like you can trade that 17% performance improvement in to get the game to function.
That’s a huge roadblock if you don’t know what games won’t work.
I have had no issues either, but setting a PC up for my little sister I quickly realized that for her it was a lot different. Games like Fortnite, Rainbow Six Siege and Valorant do not run.
Valorants a big one for me. If I wasn’t hopelessly addicted I’d have jumped ship on that games kernel level anti-cheat and windows all together
Some of the games I play can’t be played on Linux because of anti-cheat. One even uses a fucking kernel-mode driver on windows so it sure as hell ain’t working on linux
you got a lot of hate because Lemmy tends to be militantly pro-Linux, (it sort of goes hand-in-hand with the FOSS ideas that Lemmy is built on) but every Linux user who built their own rig has wanted to throw their computer out the fucking window while trying to get nvidia drivers to work.
Linux gamers point to the Steam Deck as the example that gaming on Linux isn’t awful… The Steam Deck is an amazing advancement, but it’s essentially just a console like the Xbox or PlayStation; It’s using a known list of hardware, with pre-installed and pre-tested drivers. As far as play-testing and QA is concerned, that’s as close as you can get to having a controlled environment. For people who build their own computers, drivers on Linux are still a fucking nightmare. You still occasionally have to fight with them just to get modern games working.
It’s better than it used to be, for sure. But it’s nowhere near as easy as many people want to claim. Especially when compared to Windows, where it usually is just plug and play. Microsoft can suck a chode for their invasive and monopolistic practices, but those same practices are also what led to gaming being so fucking easy on Windows. You buy the game, you install the game, and the game boots up first try. Because companies test for Windows. They know what to expect from Windows. They know how hardware will perform on Windows, and what the potential pitfalls will be. None of that is true for Linux, where the OS varies just as much as the user’s hardware.
I do genuinely believe it will continue to get better. But people who go “lol gaming on Linux is ezpz” aren’t doing Linux any favors. Because if someone hears that, tries it, and finds out it isn’t easy? They’ll be much more inclined to just go “fuck it, I tried and it didn’t work so it must not be for me” and default back to Windows.
My AMD desktop provides an almost identical user experience to the deck, just with more power. The problem isn’t Linux, it’s Nvidia not making a driver that actually works. Nvidia has always been hostile to gaming on Linux, desktop Linux users in general.
You can install any OS on the deck, it’s commodity hardware shoved into a handheld. Not a locked down device like a console.
I’ve built all my desktops and none of them ran Linux poorly, played lots of games. I’ve been gaming on Linux since my only option was unreal tournament.
Anti cheat is a show stopper for many Linux games though, if you are big into multiplayer games you might be disappointed to find out your favorite game blocks Linux users because reasons. Games outside of steam will require more work to get running, because steam does the heavy lifting for you.
There are also other edge cases where it doesn’t work great, like with CAD software. But Nvidia making garbage tier drivers has done more harm to the perception of Linux gaming than everything else combined.
One thing that people seem to dismiss, running windows games on Linux is fuckin magic. It’s not normal for an OS to be able to run another systems applications.
You are right with what you are saying, but for an average user it doesn’t matter who’s fault it is that their hardware and the OS don’t play nice together.
If they have Nvidia and it works perfectly out of the box on Windows, but not on Linux, it really doesn’t matter whether it’s the fault of Linux or Nvidia.
And sure, if you are buying a new device to run Linux on it, you can use that info to buy an ATI card that works better.
But more often than not people are switching from Windows to Linux on their existing hardware. Mostly because something doesn’t work (e.g. receiving updates on Win10 past 2024), and they’d rather switch OS than buy a new PC.
My problem is people saying Linux isn’t ready because Nvidia provides a terrible experience, and they are basing that opinion on their personal experience with Nvidias gpu drivers. Using any other gpu provides an experience so close to the deck that it’s not even a talking point.
No OS is perfect, Linux has problems, but Nvidia makes people think it’s a mess.
I think, there is another underlying problem, and that is that many Linux users are overly defensive about their OS.
If Windows frequently bluescreens due to a driver, people also say that Windows sucks. But I’ve never seen a single instance where then a more experienced Windows user says “You are wrong, Windows is great, it’s just the manufacturer of the hardware who is at fault.”
To an average user, there is no difference between OS, drivers or even user space software.
And, tbh, if the system doesn’t run correctly (no matter which part of it) nobody really cares who is at fault. Because it’s not about putting blame on someone, but rather about the user wanting to do something and it doesn’t work.
For a bad comparison: Imagine you got a new car and directly after the warranty expired, the motor breaks down and needs to be replaced.
Would you then say “The car is ok, it’s just the supplier of the sealing rings of the piston who sucks”?
I’d rather say, “This car sucks”.
I keep seeing these comments about Nvidia making shit fall apart for Linux, but I’ve been going strong for several years with Nvidia GPUs without problems. I also didn’t have any issues with AMD either mind you, but I have swapped GPU’s three times in this system: from Nvidia to AMD and back to Nvidia. I must have some great luck as I doubt these commenters are lying.
Totally agreed. It was a chore setting up gpu switching in my Nvidia + AMD igpu laptop. There were times where a gold rated game didn’t work or was basically unplayable for me (Teardown, but it’s working now). Haven’t found a just werks autohotkey script (needed for Danganronpa, played on Win instead bc of it). Bluetooth connectivity has it’s quirks, etc. These small things add up, so yeah Linux still needs a lot of ironing for me to recommend it beyond web browsing.
In my personal experience, drivers and basically everything where more straight forward (I’m on an Nvidia card). Just boot and run with significantly better performance than windows. On my crappy laptop with only integrated GPU same thing. Maybe because I don’t play any anti cheat games. Also in the indie sector there is a bit more effort on proton compatibility, basically all I have tried just work.
Drivers aren’t really an issue anymore either…
As long as you choose AMD. If you look at the Steam Hardware Survey, Linux users have very different purchasing patterns.
Hybrid gpu laptops: I’m about to ruin this man’s whole career
I have a dual GPU laptop 🤷
I guess your experience must be universal and everyone who has issues must be really dumb. Is that how you see the world?
Ahm, you okay buddy?
I have a dual GPU laptop with an AMD base and an Nvidia GPU.
Hasn’t been a problem at all (though it certainly was when I tried a year and a half ago)
Saying gaming on Linux is caner is “hate”? Lol
Come on. Go look at forums, communities, etc and see how much effort people have to put in to Linux at times just to get sound working properly, and that’s before a game is even loaded.
Just look at comments here, with problems you never see on windows.
Linux still has these issues, though they’ve gotten tremendously better.
When’s the last time you loaded windows and sound didn’t work out of the gate?
Windows just works, that’s what OP is on about. He wants to play games, not play “what isn’t working in my OS now?”.
This is also part of what drives the console market - people just want to play their game.
The Linux community can be blind about these barriers for tee average user. Yea, you can lookup and learn commands, where stuff goes, etc. But by god is that a pain in the ass. You’ve gotta be sufficiently motivated about what your doing to want to get through that. And I say this as someone who had Unix classes a long time ago.
I think you misread my comment? Or I’m misreading yours. I agree with you lol
When’s the last time you loaded windows and sound didn’t work out of the gate?
I had trouble getting Assassin’s Creed Valhalla, Cyberpunk 2077, Horizon Zero Dawn, and BG3 to open at all on Windows at various times.
All of them work great for me on Linux.
I think 99% of my issues with Windows were due to Windows Updates messing with my drivers but the point is I don’t have those problems on Linux. You never hear about Linux forcing updates that break your system.
Just last week I had to do an emergency unbrick on my linux server because of updates…
Ah but the difference is that Linux doesn’t force you to install those updates.
It really all depends what we’re talking about when we say “gaming” tbh. Proton on Steam will run literally thousands of titles in one click, no configuration necessary, flawlessly. But thousands of titles isn’t all titles. If you’re a gamer who is happy to play what works and miss out on what doesn’t, there are enough games on Linux to keep you playing for a hundred lifetimes. But if you’ve got a specific competitive multiplayer game in mind that implements anti cheat, or you want to play all the biggest AAA releases as soon as they come out, you’re going to have a less positive experience.
And yeah, Nvidia on Linux can really suck, too. Anybody buying/building a rig with Linux in mind should steer well clear. If you’re talking about an existing machine with Nvidia then you might get lucky and have an easy straightforward time, or you might find yourself straight in at the deep end with a crash course of Linux sysadmin…
Even more fun when you need to do machine learning (for which linux is often the best or only option). Getting nvidia drivers to play nice is hard enough, try adding CUDA.
The irony of that is… it was easier to get it working in Windows.
Do you only play Valorant and Rainbow 6 Siege? Most of my games work now by simply clicking Play, which wasn’t the case even 2 years ago.
There’s some bug between KDE, my Nvidia GPU, Prime, Proton and DXVK that causes my whole system to freeze (can’t even switch to console) if I try to play games with the GPU selection set to “on-demand”.
If I completely disable the Intel GPU, it runs fine, but that means I basically can’t use the laptop without a charger (because the battery drains so fast), unless I switch the GPU setting (requires a reboot) every time I want to game.
Totally fair about the laptop issues. I know sound, wifi, touchpads, fingerprint unlocks aren’t always fully compatible, and prime switcher can put up a fuss (though I remember using an alternative back in the day). I guess I’m just astounded from where I started (looking through WineHQ and GamingOnLinux forums, trying the scripts and crossing my fingers) to now, where my rig is beefy enough that a small performance hit that Proton could cause isn’t noticeable at all.
Thinking about it again, Gaming On Linux is cancerous, in the sense that it’s grown exponentially, and thanks to Valve’s support with Proton and the Steam Deck, the OS once was an afterthought for gaming has “metastasized” itself into relevancy.
Sure, it’s much better than it has been a few years ago.
But it’s still not nearly at the point where I would blindly recommend it to non-technical people and call it easy. There’s still a way to go.
On the other hand I have no problem recommending Linux to the typical “I only use an OS to run a browser” user. That wasn’t the case 5 or 10 years ago.
Anyone gonna tell him about the Steam Deck?
Not everyone wants to buy separate hardware for gaming, OP mentioned in another comment that Linux doesn’t play well with their laptop if they want to play games on it. It’s funny to see some of the Linux crowd being unable to admit that it just isn’t as plug and play as running Windows… Especially with an Nvidia GPU.
Eh? I wasn’t suggesting they buy separate hardware. I was just responding to the comment about Linux being cancer for gaming. The Steam Deck is literally proof that the OS is completely viable for gaming. I’ve been gaming just fine on my desktop with an Nvidia 3090. Linux really isn’t as bad as you think it is. It’s funny how there’s a bunch of Windows users that refuse to believe that gaming can happen on another OS. Just sounds close minded tbh.
Dude just wants Microsoft-sempai to notice him. I don’t think reason or facts are very useful
Lol.
Just look at the comments here about gaming problems on Linux.
Seriously - you never see these problems on windows these days.
“We’ll, just buy different hardware” is one answer. Imagine saying that to someone who has an extant gaming setup running windows.
You mean OP whose hardware will be obsolete for running up to date Windows and it’s on the bargaining stage of grief?
I use Linux for gaming. I have no problems nor I’ve found a game I can’t play. I know there are, just that no game I wanted to play had idea issues, and I don’t even check before buying them anymore. And I’m supposed to have bad hardware for Linux, having had Nvidia all my life.
Most comments I’ve seen are from people who haven’t tried, just parrot what others parroted.
I recall setting up wine for the original World of Warcraft. That was such a pain to do. Performance was great.
Running games on Linux now is easier than I ever could imagine. Especially with steam and the other launchers added such as Lutris.
Been rocking the game Grounded on my steam deck while my kids are on their windows machines. And it has great performance even output to 1080p monitor.
I agree it seems like most the comments are from people who haven’t even attempted to run games on it. Or maybe there attempt was just to double clicked the setup.exe and it didn’t work like windows and they threw their arms up and walked away.
Feels like ages ago interacting directly with wine. Wine tricks, Play on Linux, Crossover, Lutris, Bottles and Steam with Proton. Each one better and better and simpler than the previous.
And let’s not forget Nvidia drivers. For the past 3 years at least they are just baked into the the Distros I use, even less work to make them work than Windows.
Not so much anymore, it’s apparently improved significantly and getting better all the time. Check out linux_gaming. A lot of avid proponents there given the shitshow M$FT has made of Windows.
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only 20 yr old games worked great on Linux
I’ve got over 900 hours clocked in Apex Legends, and about 100 in Valheim. I’ve been playing multiple games from the past 5 years without any issues.
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no need to, Lutris works just as well for managing your non-Steam library.
At the same time, Baldurs Gate 3 is the most played game (in hours) on the steam deck for the past 2 months. A game that had to be delayed on Xbox because the series S couldn’t handle it.
If you see a large difference in performance Windows/Linux then dinner m something is not right. Might be Nvidia card with the open source drivers?
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Hmm what’s your specs?
It seems your igpu is being used instead of the dGPU
I have 300+ games in my Steam library, some of them with Linux builds, just a few. The rest work with Proton. I did not find a game yet that didn’t work on Linux…
I’ve found some and it sucks if the one game that doesn’t work well is one you play a lot. For me it’s Trackmania. It works some of the time but often breaks. It seems like the issue isn’t with the game itself but with Ubisoft Connect, which is pretty shit even on Windows. Very annoying.
Fortnite.
Well, it works until the server kicks you off.
No great loss there.
It’s so easy to run on Linux now. Lol what are you doing?
May I ask why you think so, Steam Deck is built on Arch Linux?
That’s what the Steam Deck is for. ;)
I game on Linux and don’t even have Windows installed. If a game doesn’t work on Linux, it isn’t worth playing so I refund/don’t get it in the first place. I’m tired of getting fucked by Windows so I’m not going to use it. At this point I just don’t care about what doesn’t work on Linux, I’m better off using it than any of the other choices anyway.
Microsoft doesn’t care about you upgrading your personal computer. they care about business licenses. Enterprise pays the bills, and enterprise computers have all had TPM for ages. I don’t see any reason for them to make a change. consumers buying a new os for an existing computer is a drop in the bucket
Yeah, and then there are many enterprises that still use XP (edge case, but it may be well hundreds of thousands worldwide still) or Win 7 (possible millions of companies). It is not all smooth sailing in enterprise level either, many companies are upgrade averse, and if the stuff works, then why upgrade it.
Because of missing support and updates. These machines are not their concern though - they are running obsolete software and/or hardware that’s incompatible with an upgrade. No matter the requirements for tpm on win 11.
Because it’s cheaper to sell them back then support all the bullshit and replace batteries every damn week whenever anybody complains about having a slow computer. As well as an easy way to manage money. You just lease the machines, send them off, and if there is a problem the vendor deals with shipping, troubleshooting, and all the labor managing an older device.
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So don’t pay for windows, get it unactivated and use MAS to activate it.
You’ve already paid for the Windows license when you bought the PC.
Me scratching off the labels of old Win7 office computers at work
This assumes you bought a pre-made machine. Building your own won’t have any OS you didn’t install yourself.
That’s such a tiny market that it’s completely irrelevant to a company like Microsoft.
But they can’t track you as much on windows 10, and almost not at all on linux
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I don’t know if it’s still this way, but a decade and more ago (when I last had any professional contact with Microsoft’s development) the company was effectively divided into two competing factions- the Office people and the Windows people. They had wildly different priorities for the shared tech stack, and mutually exclusive demands on the others’ products, and there was a constant bun fight on who got their way. The surprising thing is, even by that era, the Office faction were the dominant one; that’s where the real money was.
Then I gather the Azure faction was born and has completely dominated both, becoming a massive majority of the company’s profitable business.
The gaming people (Xbox and whatnot) were always poor relations, if you’re wondering, and MS R&D was its own eccentric little world which seemed to exist entirely outside of the universe inhabited by any of the others.
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What cloud services, office? I find it hard to believe windows OS isn’t possible
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Sorry, Profitable, brain fart.
Is there a source on the OS not being profitable?
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It’s not that Windows isn’t profitable, it’s that Office is insanely profitable. There’s a running joke inside MS that Office pays the bills, everything else is icing on the cake.
It’s not that Windows isn’t profitable, it’s that Office is insanely profitable. There’s a running joke inside MS that Office pays the bills, everything else is icing on the cake.
It’s not that Windows isn’t profitable, it’s that Office is insanely profitable. There’s a running joke inside MS that Office pays the bills, everything else is icing on the cake.
Almost?? Do go on
I guess most people still access the internet. Websites track you no matter what OS you use.
And also MS Edge
Who in the name of God is running Linux with edge as their browser of choice.
Unfortunately it’s the only way to use Gamepass on Linux, so even if it’s not the browser of choice, some people do have it installed on their machines.
Why? What benefit would Microsoft have in changing the requirements for Windows 11 when Windows 12 will more than likely be the OS they focus most of their resources on?
This.
The way Microsoft phrases it, it’s way more ubiquitous than you make it out:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/what-is-tpm-705f241d-025d-4470-80c5-4feeb24fa1ee
"TPM has been around for over 20 years, and has been part of PCs since around 2005. In 2016 TPM version 2.0 - the current version as of this writing - became standard in new PCs.
The odds are that your PC does already have TPM, and if it’s less than 5 years old you should have TPM 2.0.
To find out if your Windows 10 PC already has it go to Start > Settings > Update and Security > Windows Security > Device Security. If you have it, you’ll see a Security processor section on the screen."
So when they say:
“Important: Windows 11 requires TPM version 2.0.”
They’re requiring a standard established 7 years ago. Windows 11 launched in 2021, why WOULDN’T it require something from 2016?
You really want to run an OS from 2021 on hardware older than 2016? That’s not going to be a good idea, TPM or not.
Probably worth noting that TPM often needs to be enabled in the motherboard’s BIOS. It’s possible that OP has it already, but got the “you don’t have TPM” error when trying to upgrade to Win11, simply because it isn’t activated in their BIOS.
Also worth noting that people may have access to TPM through their CPU, notably AMD Rysens… And that some of those were plagued for a while with very bad performance issues when it was activated.
It’s supposed to be fixed now, but only if you got the right BIOS updates. Not sure myself, I kinda gave up on TPM and Windows 11 on my current hardware.
The way things are going, honestly my next PC will probably have TPM because it’ll have a newer motherboard, but I am not ruling out not having Windows on it.
Yup, seems likely given how it’s baked in and has been baked in for years.
Problem is, i havent enabled my TPM and don’t plan to, either.
TPM just gives your PC a non-spoofable fingerprint so Microsoft can always identify your PC. It’s simply a DRM-device built into your PC.
Your PC is already identifiable by the license key, the hardware installed, and you signing in with a Microsoft Account. If you’re that worried about gummint tracking or something, you shouldn’t even be gaming on your PC, as games and game stores have a lot of data to leak about you and what you’re doing on the PC.
i don’t sign-in to my systems with a microsoft account. hell, i don’t even have one. nowadays, i dunno if i could even get one–and maintain it, as i do not have, nor want, an sms-capable or ‘smart’ phone. they don’t do ‘verification’ bullshit by voice anymore, just sms.
Just because you haven’t enabled it doesn’t mean it’s not available. If you want a modern operating system, that’s the “you must be this tall to ride this ride.”
You mean a massively patched windows 2000 with modern OS? Does Linux count, or BSD? How about macOS?
Linux if you’re prepared to support it entirely yourself and still have functional issues.
MacOS if you want to pay 3x the price for hardware that’s 1/2 as capable and has locked you out of modifications.
Linux if you’re prepared to support it entirely yourself
What does this even mean? The most work caused in administering my company’s IT comes from destructive patches from Microsoft. Just like a month ago they released a security patch that caused the domain controller to not reboot which is pretty much the worst thing you can run into aside outright malicious actors (not sure Microsoft doesn’t count as one). So I had to “support” users by rolling back untested shit until a hotfix was released.
My private setup runs exclusively on Linux. Patches also sometimes cause trouble but it’s just as infrequent and less destructive if it happens.
It’s really not that different from an admin point of view but it’s not Linux’ business model to snoop on or extort you or to force proprietary hardware on you because sEcUrItY.
Two days ago I spent the whole day rebuilding a linux server because an update ate the system. This is not a Microsoft specific issue.
Just nobody talks about that - it’s all wonderful in the land of Linux. A breeze managing 600+ laptops used by non-it-literate execs. No error all the time!
My favorite is when the sssd package maintainers don’t properly update their dependencies, so when some of the packages get updated, they don’t pull in others, and then I’m not able to log in with my external account.
Here’s what I’m going to say here. With Windows it’s very easy to make it a very slow running/system with problems. But, it’s generally quite hard to entirely break it such that you cannot get to the GUI and attempt to fix it.
With Linux, just updating will sometimes break the system to the extent that if you’re lucky it will boot to a terminal. I’m experienced with linux (since the 1990s) and I’ve had linux systems that took my a better part of a day to fix. Someone that just wants to turn it on and work is going to be lost trying to fix this kind of thing.
Ubuntu upgrades from one release to another are extremely hit and miss in my experience and again if you don’t know how to pick up a failed upgrade and complete it, then fix the broken dependencies, fix the upgraded stuff that doesn’t like your old config files, etc etc. You’re going to be in trouble.
Linux is objectively better in every way except when it goes wrong. This is one of the reasons normal users won’t adopt it en-masse.
Windows upgrades from one version to the other are also a hot mess, so I don’t think that’s a knock against Linux. I just think everyone sucks at in place upgrades, maybe not Mac but I have little experience there.
I’d much rather reinstall windows fresh than upgrade a 7 machine to 10 to be on a supported OS. Going from 10 to 11 uninstalled most of my apps and still resulted in a janky system.
Rolling distros don’t have this same problem because there aren’t really versions but they have a whole bunch of new and different problems. I still prefer rolling for personal systems though.
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You really want to run an OS from 2021 on hardware older than 2016? That’s not going to be a good idea, TPM or not.
Why?
10+ years of usage for a PC or laptop is completely normal outside the gamere/tech enthusiast bubble.
If you only use your PC for Amazon, Streaming and occasionally Word/Excel, a 10yo laptop is totally enough.
Because old hardware doesn’t keep up with new system specs. There’s only so much you can upgrade and replace.
Technically, yeah, I can run Mac OSX on my Rev. B Bondi Blue iMac. Should I? No. Not if I want a modicum of a usable device.
That’s an argument that wouldn’t even hit a barn door from a step away.
It’s an argument based on working in tech for 40 years.
Old as fuck machines can absolutely still work so long as you continue using old as fuck software.
If you want the latest, you have to upgrade.
Yep, it’s an argument outdated by about 20 years. At that time 10 years difference between two machines meant that you had completely different machine.
But having a good 10yo machine now means it’s about on the same level as an entry-level machine now. My laptop I bought in 2013 for ~€700 had an i7 4th gen, which is totally fast enough for non-gaming usage, 8GB RAM, 500GB SSD and a dGPU that’s still faster than most iGPUs.
That are specs you can still find in modern entry-level PCs.
And that laptop has no issue running Win10 at all and if I workaround the arbitrary requirement for TPM2 and Intel Gen 8, it also runs fine. But I don’t want to risk that Microsoft sometime arbitrarily decides to not give me updates any more.
And also, the argument that it’s not a good choice to run a modern OS on a 25yo machine is a pretty dumb counter against the argument that a 10yo machine can run a modern OS without issue.
we still run win10 at the office on dual core wolfdale systems. they mostly now have 8gb ram and sata ssd. they run great. wolfdale launched in 2008, seven years before win10 was released.
i also have win11 set up on ivy bridge and haswell, that are also running very well. used daily for everything from basic office tasks, email with local multi-gigabyte mail stores, to video capture and editing. these are even older in relation to win11 than wolfdale is to win10.
the main issue is microsoft has unilaterally and arbitrarily decided that all these systems, all the way up to kaby lake (which was only discontinued by intel in 2020), which are usable by many, if not most, users for the tasks they perform are now ‘obsolete’… all in the name of profits for them and their oem partners.
It’s hard to avoid. People here just have been bitching about tpm because Linux distro maintainers don’t want to jump through hoops signing their shit. This problem doesn’t exist outside of Linux forums and people with absurdly old hardware.
Wrong. Linux has supported TPM2.0 for ages before even Windows and every distro maintainer would gladly sign their shit. The problem is that a shitload of hardware only accepts Microsoft TPM keys by default which can’t legally be used by Linux distributions, forcing the work onto the users. It’s pure vendor lock-in.
Also, this is going to be a way less of an issue when UKI’s become the standard.As I recall it, and correct me if I am wrong; but Linux and Distros are given keys to use? So if they want to they can revoke those keys and you could only install a Windows operating system?
The the default keys on the hardware, e.g. the keys hardcoded to the motherboard are 95+% of the time only the Microsoft Windows one’s.
Even if the distro maintainers & developers had everything configured by default to be signed which is a pain in the ass without UKI’s, it still requires the user to add new keys manually. Rarely do you have hardware with a key for a Linux distribution, and even if you managed to get hardware that has them, the majority of the time it’s only keys for stuff like RHEL, Ubuntu Enterprise Edition, etc.So if they want to they can revoke those keys
That’s generally not possible, but I imagine if the BIOS is Internet capable it could be.
and you could only install a Windows operating system.
Nope. TPM isn’t required to be able to install the system, only to take advantage of secure boot and security features of the hardware.
No chance.
Is anyone going to bring up the fact they told everyone 10 was the last version of windows. Then they launched 11 and are now talking about 12.
I know companies lie all the time, but we can at least call them out on it
No one believed them. It’d be like McDonald’s saying they aren’t going to serve hamburger anymore.
Well depending on your standards it could still be argued
Won’t take much to convince me.
No chance.
You concentrate on the TPM but ignore the CPU requirements…? If you have a CPU that is up to spec, you have a TPM - they’re built in the CPU. Most people just need to turn it on in the BIOS (or update their BIOS as motherboard manufacturers have turned on the TPM as “Windows 11 support”)
The truth of it is, every “jump” OS, i.e. 95, XP, 7, 10 has run really poorly on >5 year old chips at the time of launching. And MS got panned at “how slow” is was. But it was also the norm to update your PC more often. Now speed increases have slowed and Moore’s Law has ended, it’s about security and performance hit of said security. The truth is, the kernel hardening and malware protection and encryption built into 11 to make it far less likely to get infected than 10 and 7 means it needs the hardware support to do it. Without it, it runs far slower or is less secure. Neither anyone wants.
When 10 support ends in 2 years time, the lowest supported processor for 11 will be nearly 9 years old…
Damn, some sense around these parts. Always felt the TPM issue was overblown. Unless you wanted Win11 on day 1, and no sensible user should be doing that anyway!
I wonder how many people are suffering from terrible performance due to the AMD fTPU being a piece of shit? I’ve tried to turn it on for two different CPUs of different generations (3700X and 5800X) and they both had horrible stuttering. Even if I wanted to I couldn’t upgrade to Windows 11 like Microsoft wants because the experience would be unacceptable.
Do you have any references for the reduced malware infections provided by Win 11 that requires the TPU?
It’s not directly the TPM - it’s the enhanced security instructions in the newer chips (which is the real reason for the very definite line drawn).
Read https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/why-windows-11-has-such-strict-hardware-requirements-according-to-microsoft/ from “A towering stack of security acronyms”
I have an INTEL I9-10850K installed on a MSI MAG Z490 mobo that I bought in 2020 and neither have A TPM.
What is your definition of ‘up to spec’?
30 seconds on Google would’ve answered your question.
The TPM is part of the Intel Management Engine in your CPU.
In your motherboard UEFI firmware, goto Security - Trusted Computing and enable Security Device support.
Et voilà.
Yep, you’re right I can enable it.
I was going off of MSI’s spec page for my motherboard and it says it has a connector for the TPM module so I assumed that meant it wasn’t there by default.
To quote Under Siege 2 “assumption is the mother of all fuck ups”.
3 years, dude! 😁
Enjoy giving Windows 11 a proper spin. I recommend choosing “English (World)” as the language/location, then you don’t get any of the post install bloat / sponsored apps, etc installed too. Then when you log in, just change your locale to the correct one if you want to use the Microsoft Store. Or don’t, if you want that to remain disabled.
the “infection protection” relies on you to trust Microsoft that they check everything you want to do to your PC. For computer illiterate users this may be a benefit, but only if MS doesn’t turn evil or negligent or stupid and blocks apps that you need. You can brick a PC from remote with TPM.
You can brick a pc from remote with a boot virus, without needing the TPM to do it.
How? You could certainly temporarily break the boot process, but I can’t see how you’d completely brick it.
Ha ha, no.
Chances are by Windows 12 they’ll start implementing a check with their vendors to verify you’re running windows and deny you any alternatives.
Windows 13 will melt your PC if you type the word Linux.
And Windows 14 will take you out to the woods and execute you if you even so much as think about a penguin.
“You must purchase a Big Mac with a large fries to continue logging into your Microsoft account.”
https://lemmy.world/post/9205583
Here’s why it’s against Microsoft interest to drop TPM requirement. They will paywall updates for Windows 10. So, pay for software updates or pay for hardware updates.
Because there is no possible alternative /S
This is nothing new. Windows 10 will be 10 years old at that point. They’ve done paid extended service for several previous windows versions. I don’t like Windows or Microsoft. I run Linux or MacOS where I can but I can’t fault them for supporting an OS for 10 years.
Longer than apple will ever support an OS you can be damn sure about that.
The updates are free and changes affecting user interface and software compatible are minimal. Especially compared to windows versions.
I quite enjoy MacOS but they are way more likely to break backwards compatibility than Microsoft. I would argue that one of Microsoft’s biggest problems with Windows is that they don’t break compatibility often enough. The engineering effort they put into maintaining support for archaic software is pretty immense.
What? No. lol
Apple updates constantly break whether or not an application can be updated and remain compatible. It’s literally the biggest headache we have when dealing with Apple in an enterprise environment. This version of Adobe CC only works on MacOS Big Sur but the other department is still on High Sierra and this remote site is fully on Monterey. None of their projects are cross compatible because they’re all on different versions of Adobe which aren’t compatible with their OS versions.
User interface? Sure. Though W11 can look exactly like 10 if you want. I don’t really care about changes in aesthetic though.
Sounds like an Adobe/corporate IT management issue. My only experience is with MacOs on personal devices. All companies I’ve worked with have used windows and updates were avoided until absolutely necessary.
Lol “I have no knowledge of this but it’s definitely a management problem.”
Thanks, but it’s not. Adobe can’t be updated past a certain point unless you update the OS. Can’t do that cause the machine is too old? Better buy a new one. The point of being “too old” is much much younger than Windows PC hardware.
Windows is easy, just update it. Still on Windows 10? No problem. Still supported. The updates are also free lol for whatever that matters.
I’m not familiar with MacOS, but what’s preventing Adobe from updating? Is it updating from the App store and apple just stops delivering the updates after EOL or is it that Adobe doesn’t bother pushing updates for OS versions past their EOL?
In any case, it sucks that apple decides that a otherwise perfectly capable computer is no longer supported just due to age (like with phones I guess…)
Apple disables old apps claiming they aren’t compatible with their new OS.
It literally breaks entire programs for dumb reasons.
Yeah, I know it’s nothing new. Just an example of what Microsoft offers to people on his situation and how Microsoft won’t suddenly backtrack on W12.
Wow, so many salty replies to Linux or soon-to-be Linux users in that thread
Not really, the only saltines comes from OPs tears all over this post.
It’s just so fun seeing how OP is faced with either having an unsecure system or having to pay to replace his otherwise perfectly capable machine, but still has so much loyalty to Microsoft (or he’s in extreme denial) that he’s throwing shit at everybody,even those who just explain Microsoft won’t drop the requirement.
But it’s ok, my non TPM machines will continue to work for years, always up to date. And when 12 rises the requirements yet again I’ll laugh at all the people crying that a trillion dollars company isn’t hearing them.
As someone mentioned in the comments, non TPM machines can have W11 on them and it will most likely work just fine so that’s pretty much a non issue…
In 2025 TPM 2.0 will be 11 years old, add the optional 3 years of updates and that’s 14 years old, I don’t think there will be that much personal hardware without TPM 2.0 that is still being actively used at either of those points and if the people who do still use it absolutely want to stick to Windows then they’ll still have the option I mentioned before…
Both AMD and Intel bake a hardware TPM into their CPUs IIRC. I think Windows 11 complains more about Secure Boot not being enabled on my PC than the TPM.
You can tinker your way around it, and hope Microsoft doesn’t change anything that breaks the workaround. Doesn’t make OPs less funny.
Serious question: what are the actual application of TPM in our day-to-day use?
https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/definition/trusted-platform-module-TPM
It’s doing stuff in the background…
What incentive would they have? What competition is there?
What incentive would they have? What competition is there?
They would have no incentive of course. A Win11 system with the TPM turned off would be infected with malware straight away.
You haven’t used Windows in at least a decade, have you?
Windows 10 and 11 come by default with Defender, which is one of the best anti-viruses on the block. And it is always enabled unless you install a different AV.
From business standpoint, it simply bleeds you potential profits. If tens of percents skimp on two of your OS iterations in a row and keep windows 10 (which most of were “free” upgrades from Win 7 to begin with) then you are losing lot of revenue in a long run. I got the original win 10 upgrade in 2015 (bought win 7 in 2011) , in 2020 build a new PC and still use that licence on it.I possibly see myself using Win 10 well into 2026/2027 when my PC is due for complete replacement. So that is over 15 years period where MS saw no money from me while I still use completely legal version of OS. If there was no TPM requirement, I would probabably already be on Win 11
You make it sound like MS cares about home users at all. MS makes money off business licensing. Forcing businesses to dump old equipment is a big win for them.
It’s not like the people that aren’t upgrading were making them any money anyways. MS doesn’t care about you or the 10’s of people that decide to not upgrade.
Businesses swap hardware every 2-4 years anyway, for support or warranty reasons.
My company shoots for 5 year life on desktops, 3 on laptops. At that mark we evaluate if the machine is still supported and doing the job it needs to do.
If either of those things are not true then we replace the unit.
Smaller companies that I have worked for tried to stretch most hardware to double that, but it was always a bad idea imo.
Microsoft doesn’t make their money selling to consumers, they make their money selling to businesses. Thats why you don’t really need a Windows license, and why the OS is filled to the brim with garbage
It would be a fair assumption if Microsoft’s clients were individuals and businesses, but their main clients are the OEMs that buy and package Windows licenses with the computers they sell.
Now, I don’t see why OEMs would ask Microsoft to drop this requirement (it’s not particularly hard or unbearably expensive to add TPM), and even if they did they don’t have a say in this as Microsoft has hard hardware requirements for Windows PC.
OEMs benefit from the rule. People (as in the average non-techie) who have older hardware or don’t have the right bios settings will feel the need to purchase new hardware that is already running the latest version of Windows.
I think they will rethink things only if it’s cutting into the profits enough. Unfortunately, most people won’t understand the issue and just buy something new if they can. Of those that didn’t upgrade, a chunk might also be people who can’t upgrade because of compatibility reasons (ex. Lots of healthcare providers only RECENTLY switched to Windows 10). The remaining portion might just use Linux.
Overall they get more out of keeping the requirement unfortunately?
I don’t think most people would buy a new computer if the OS cannot upgrade. Average Joe can’t afford that, Joe would rather stay on an EOL system and hope everything is alright.
It depends on the country you live in. A computer isn’t such a big expense in some countries and people will just drop 500$ for a new computer without thinking about it.
$500 is an enormous sum to throw out without thinking, even in places where it’s not an above-average monthly salary. An average person wouldn’t throw out a perfectly good computer just because his OS told him to, he would think “how bad could it be?” unless the system literally bricks itself.
Yeah but if you combine that with the fact that their computer is getting slower, can’t run some demanding games and so on.
Just look at the way people are replacing perfectly working 2 years old phones. It’s even more obvious.
I only really know better-off people in big cities doing so with phones (closest to a really common case would be important things like Whatsapp stopping working). Also a non-flagship phone doesn’t cost nearly as much as a computer.
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business
It is good for their business.
There are very few people who turn away from M$ because they disagree with the TPM requirement.
There are some more people who whine and complain about the TPM requirement. Note the subtle difference :-) Experience has shown that most of these people have no real problem. They find a way, for example buy new hardware. It was a success for M$ if you buy new hardware.
In the long run, M$ wants to make more use of your TPM. Therefore I do not think that they see any reason to drop it.
Absolutely not. None of the arguments you said are even relevant for their business. If it was true they would do their best to reduce the requirements creep version to version.
Of course you can use Linux, but you made clear that you’re uninformed about that in another post.
I’ve been running 11 on my 10 y/o PC without TPM 2 for a while and it’s been working with zero issues. It’s all just a money grabbing scheme to get people to upgrade their hardware.
Rufus or registry editing during installation can both dodge the requirement if you need it.
