- cross-posted to:
- news
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- news
- [email protected]
WASHINGTON, D.C. – After narrowly backing Israel’s military action in Gaza in November, Americans now oppose the campaign by a solid margin. Fifty-five percent currently disapprove of Israel’s actions, while 36% approve.
I’m mocking lemmy’s pro-genocide centrists who immediately call anyone who opposes Netanyahu’s genocide a Russian shill, yes.
Most of the people I’ve seen here are against Israel, even the ones who are against Russia.
Good for you. The centrists who love that the US is supporting the genocide they’ve always wanted scream “Russian” when anyone suggests that the US should stop supporting genocide.
If you’ve never seen it, try being critical of the US’ support for Netanyahu.
I’ve never been accused of being Russian over my criticism of Nazrael. Did you read the article? It’s about how demographically, the statistical centrists have flipped against the Israelis.
They’re against Israel but when you say you’ll vote third party or sit out the vote you get people jumping at your throat and trying to deny reality by telling you to fall in like or we’ll get another Trump term. I don’t see it as much now but it was pretty common even just a couple of weeks ago.
No. They assume without evidence that opposition to genocide is advocacy for voting third party or staying home or voting for Trump.
I see it constantly in this community.
“Biden should stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide.”
“You think Trump would be better? Russian Chinese Republican nazi tankie child shill bot!!!”
Oh that too.
This is not reality.
The reality is that if you oppose genocide you get yelled at for continuing to show any support for the Biden campaign despite the fact that his opponent is the genocide-accelerationist candidate.
And I’m someone who thinks we should defund Israel and then look away for a year or 5.
Stop trying to have abstract parasocial arguments with entire demographics at once, you’re driving yourself nuts.
I’ve been called a russian in this very thread for saying that Biden should stop supporting genocide.
I suppose that’s good enough for you to throw everything else I said out the window. Good morning.
Edit: that or those comments were deleted by a moderator, I would invite you to reconsider throwing everything else I said out the window.
Don’t say I’m lying about recent lived experience and I won’t point out how you’re wrong.
I mean, strategy in FPTP voting systems means that you aren’t voting for a candidate, but against the worst candidate. Is this not the correct understanding? Or does your state have RCV or another alternate voting system?
Edit: I was downvoted, so maybe I misunderstood something. Could someone explain?
FPTP implies you’re voting against all the other candidates, not just against the worst candidate. I don’t think that’s worthy of downvotes though lmao I think state propagandists tend to downvote discussion that actually leads anywhere productive. Sorry.
The people who decided not to vote for Biden made that decision with this information in mind. The problem is: The enshittification of the Democratic Party relies on the idea that people will hold their noses and vote for the “lesser evil”. This nonsense is how we got Trump in 2016 and how we (or well you I’m not American) are going to get him in 2024. Even if everyone does hold their noses and vote for Trump we’ll get another Trump, then another, then another, until the Dems are putting children back in the mines and saying “but we’re better than the Republicans”.
If people don’t put their foot down and demand change nothing will happen.
It is in very general terms, but when you get down to it it fails miserably, because when both candidates are bad people not all vote for the lesser evil; they just don’t vote. This depresses turnout for the Democrats (Republicans love Trump), when voter turnout is their lifeline. The people who voted for Biden in 2016 are extremely disillusioned with him for many reasons, not the least of which actively perpetuating genocide. This isn’t the recipe for high voter turnout. Essentially saying vote for the lesser evil works until the people you’re calling on say no thanks, and we’re way past that point.
Edit: Grammar.
Biden didn’t run in 2016.
Oh shit I brainfarted, I meant 2020.
I’ve been preaching that centrist stance for a while. You and I have tangled over it before.
But public sentiment is definitely changing.
I still think that taking a strong stance against Israel will harm Biden more than help.
But that might not be true for much longer. If this trend continues, then what you’ve been wrong about before will become right.
Shut the fuck up already.
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I actually don’t understand this stance. Pro-Israel people tend to be one of these groups:
1-People who simply grew up with the propaganda and are still believing it. These lost the majority of democratic voters recently, and they’re only decrease more, but more importantly to them this isn’t an election-deciding issue. I think we can agree that this group doesn’t care as much about Israel as they do about Trump not becoming president. There’s just not much for them at stake.
2-Zionist Jews. This is usually pointed to as the demographic Biden will lose if he doesn’t support Israel, but the thing is: Jews are less likely to support Israel than the general population. If anything being tougher on Israel might win Biden Jewish votes.
3-Evangelicals. These are the real deal here, but let’s face it: How many of these were voting democrat to begin with?
Yes a very large number of people support Israel, but that’s not the number we need to worry about. The really important question is: How many people on either side will take it as an election-defining issue and how likely are those people to lose Biden the election? Given that losing Muslims alone is liable to make Biden lose, and he’s losing (mainly young) progressives on top of that, I think we can see the answer to that question.
How many Muslims do you think there are in the US??
I don’t necessarily agree. As I said, that’s changing. But yes, the average, ill-informed, centrist voter until very recently would have very strong opinions about Biden not supporting Israel. Maybe not enough alone to sway a vote, but with such close sentiment already it would push a large number over the edge.
Irrelevant question.
A better question is - How many Muslims are in Michigan?
And the answer to that is - Enough to flip the state, and therefore the election, to Trump.
Possibly. Another relevant question - how many white centrists in Wisconsin, Nevada, and Arizona?
People who would vote for Trump because Biden chose not to support genocide? Probably not many. From what I understand real centrists are a dying breed.
Politically active centrists are a dying breed, because if they actually paid attention they wouldn’t be centrists.
But somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3 of the country falls into the low-information voter category.
I mean low-information voter is one thing, but I think even those people either understand that Trump is a threat to democracy or think that he’s their messiah who descended from the sky.
Thank you for telling us which demographic you consider indispensable.
Not too many Russians in America, so I couldn’t say them, I know that’s so disappointing for you
I didn’t say “tell me what you call people you hate because they oppose genocide.”
so as an asian who supports israel,which group do i belong to?
bearing in mind i am not in any abrahamic religion and i support Israel military actions against hamas and their supporters but not palestinians.
You’re number 1. “Military actions against Hamas and their supporters but not Palestinians” don’t exist in Gaza.
sounds to me you are a hamas supporter that supports genocide and the oct 7th attack didn’t happen kinda people.
Nice strawman. You’re literally supporting genocide and apartheid.
as opposed to letting hamas commit genocide per their charter??
Israel has had a permanent occupation of the Occupied Palestinian Territories since 1967, maintaining an apartheid state through direct and indirect violence.
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation.
What Is Hamas? - Council on Foreign Relations
What Does Hamas Actually Want? - NY Mag
Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
Hamas Election - Snopes
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. The 2017 Revised charter accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter
Speak of the devil.
You managed to go 6 whole sentences without screaming that I’m a Russian because I oppose the genocide you love. I didn’t know you had it in you.
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Thank you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about.
My position has been consistent and clear: Biden should stop supporting genocide. I have never supported voting for Trump and never will. I will be voting for Biden in the general election. Your anger at me is exclusively due to my opposition to genocide. I’m glad that most Americans are better than you.
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Why are you bragging about being wrong?
Particularly about being wrong about genocide?
It’s all he is.
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