Bottom Line
The only purported evidence for the claim that Khelif is trans comes from an undisclosed test performed by an allegedly corrupt sports governing body that may have shown she has a DSD condition. The IOC has said Khelif meets its requirements for participation, with Adams, the IOC spokesman, specifically clarifying, “This is not a transgender issue.”
Because Khelif is not transgender, claims attempting to make her victory against Carini an issue about transgender rights or “woke” politics are without basis.
Gee, I wonder if the right wing morons will stop screeching about it now.
Narrator: they did not.
Take a page from the Democrats’ current tactics: “what is it with you people and genitalia?”
Don’t engage in debate, because that just implies their position is worthy of it. Ridicule them at every turn.
No they won’t. You assume they are legitimately trying to base their beliefs and arguments in some factuality. Once they get the idea that something is what they think it is then they will never budge from it.
In the past they used to make claims about being rational and dispassionate and using facts over feels. But none of that was ever true. Rationality is not a process to them, to them it is a trait like eye color. They believe their beliefs are rational because they are inherently rational and therefore if you argue against them, you are being irrational by default.
In their minds Khelif is transgender and there us nothing you can say that’ll convince them otherwise.
They also have a tendency to create definitions for things that are otherwise not defined as such. For example they might start to label any woman that doesn’t behave or look exactly as they want a woman to behave or look as transgender no matter how straight and cisgender they are.
I am not exposed to right-wing media, which means I am only hearing the left screech about it. Sounds like a total non-story, though.
Well dang. It seems like corporate news could have done this right off the bat.
FOR SOME REASON they didn’t. Huh. Weird.
Even the BBC mentioned it in the first article I saw about this.
I’m still not surprised to see all the social media things, like JKKK Rowling sharing their usual slop.
Every day more and more people are starting to notice…
John Oliver did briefly on LWT.
I mean, it’s arguable, but I wouldn’t include LWT in ‘corporate news’.
Men when they’re abnormally good compared to their peers: Wow, amazing!
Women when they’re abnormally good compared to their peers: She’s a man!
She’s not even abnormally good, she is good, but not impossibly dominant like some like Phelps.
IF YOU HAVE A VAGINA YOU’RE A WOMAN! It would be REALLY WEIRD if Republicans DIDN’T agree with that Statement anymore considering all the Legislation regarding Youth Genitalia they’ve been Passing!
Republicans are just so obsessed with people’s genitalia, it’s honestly quite weird.
but if she was it also wouldn’t be a big deal.
If its not, the competition should be non gendered then.
If someone transitions late in life it is unfair for other competitors.
See how under age boys compete vs. Adult women in different running sports.
It’s just not fair for the women since birth to compete with someone who had an unfair biological advantage to begin with. We have empirical evidence to back it up.
But I guess that’s just a dumb opinion.
Maybe not to you and me. If this is how they react to lies, imagine if it was the truth. It’s fuckin’ scary.
Removed by mod
Looks like they need to group people by testosterone range… oh wait
No-one is saying she’s trans. She is, however, chromosomally male (DSD), which is the issue under debate.
There are genetic conditions, termed differences of sexual development, in which biological females are born with XY chromosomes but possess female anatomy
Though there is no independent confirmation that Khelif has these conditions, people born this way would legally be considered female or intersex.
XY = male.
You have no idea how complicated genetics actually are. Some people are XX and born male, others are just X and female, some are XXY and male, while some are XXXX and female. But you dont actually care about genetics, you just want to spread hate online.
Some people don’t care, some are too stupid to even grasp the concept.
The person you’re replying to obviously cares enough to comment…
And as I said, it hasn’t been independently confirmed, pure speculation until then.
And the Olympics don’t make chromosomes the deciding factor for competition. So even if her chromosomes aren’t “correct” these people just want to make her the poster child of women abuse… These same people want to ban women’s right to medically care so it’s all anti women and anti LGBTQ all wrapped up in one.
Swyer syndrome is just males born with vaginas and occasionally getting pregnant and giving birth I guess.
That’s what I was taught in primary school. But it turns out a lot of things are more complex than what was taught in primary school.
You mustn’t have read the article. There is zero proof of that, just a half-baked claim with no proof to back it up, from the corrupt and sanctioned International Boxing Association (IBA). Women really shouldn’t have to their genitals or chromosomes inspected just to prove they are a ‘real’ woman, just because some arsehole thinks they don’t look feminine enough.
So:
-
iba is wrong and corrupt,
-
the tests were fake and even if they weren’t they shouldn’t even be done
-
everyone who thinks she looks very atypical for a woman and very typical for a man is wrong
-
if anyone doesn’t agree with you, they are an “arshole”
Brilliant! Bravo!
Unironically, yes, that is a decent summary of the situation. I mean your last bullet wasn’t in the article and is somewhat subjective, but…
Ok. Wow. You really don’t see how you look like, claiming this?
I mean if nothing else, you look like the “arshole” in the situation .
So, the test administered by the IBA was “We can’t tell you, it’s proprietary” and the results of the test were “Trust me bro, she failed,” and now this supposed test result is being used by people to jump to conclusions about her appearance and to try and drag her down just to make a rallying point in arguments about sex and gender in sports. Sorry if people blatantly ignoring how flimsy their evidence is so they can make a point by accusing some athlete of being really a male led me to make my own uncouth assumptions about the personality of someone who would hold such a view.
So you had no thought about iba not releasing the full tests to protect the athlete?
You are jumping to conclusion that it’s all a big conspiracy against this athlete. That sounds unlikely to me.
Also, you accuse me of using this situation as some kind of rallying cry and I will assume everyone that is not 100% in line with what you think. I was banned from another community just by saying that there is an issue in woman sports by individuals with certain conditions and that it should be addressed. Who is in total mob mode here? Not even a mention of discussion is allowed.
So you had no thought about iba not releasing the full tests to protect the athlete?
You are jumping to conclusion that it’s all a big conspiracy against this athlete. That sounds unlikely to me.
Are you aware of the circumstances around the decision, the IBA being banned for having a long history of shadiness, and only failing this woman as soon as she beat a Russian? I suppose the IOC could all be conspiracy theorists too…
…says the person downvoted to ovlivion for being an arsehole.
Some people… How can you be so… unaware.
Yes popularity defines truth. Keep thinking that. It’s nice and cozy in your bubble.
Whether you’re an asshole or not absolutely depends on the opinion of others, not your own.
Again… Fucking unaware of your surroundings.
- Correct, with proof.
- Correct, see bullet point 1.
- There’s nothing that describes a “typical woman” or “typical man”.
- Correct, I think the actual term is a “bigot”.
Do you get off from being stupid?
A pretty bad trolling attempt. You got to give me something better.
Pretty good summary TBH.
The last point is also supported by the evidence at hand.
I’m sure your life is also perfectly summarised by a meme.
It writes itself, rofl.
-
Not even. The IBA never clarified what test she supposedly failed, they just randomly disqualified her and never explained why.
And yes, TONS of people are claiming she’s trans.
Tons of idiots, possibly.
Well, the world is full of idiots, so sadly stupid things like this become real issues that hurt real people.
You won’t win a ton of people by calling them idiots.
The people calling this woman trans are not the people whos hearts and minds can be won over.
That’s a very obviously not true. Most people don’t know what is going on and they go by what they read in the news or were told. If you start by calling them idiots, they will (quite legitimately I must add) think you are the idiot and ignore you.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Many people are still saying she’s trans. Trump even said it yesterday at one of his rallies.
I don’t count Trump as a person.
We’re all really impressed with your super clever and funny joke but maybe you should go back and edit the blatant lie out of your original comment now?
no true scotsman eh?
What’s your basis for making the claim about her chromosomes?
Never heard of it.
It has been described as libertarian-leaning,[2][3][4] “the right wing’s highly influential answer to Slate”[5] as well as an “anti-PC soapbox.”[6]
That doesn’t make it wrong in this specific case or even necessarily less trustworthy in the general case. The Wall Street Journal is generally considered a conservative-leaning newspaper but their reporting is very reliable.
We’re at a point where vetting news corps is an important step in wading through disinformation and vitriol.
Reliably conservative? Sure. Reliably factual. Eeeeeeh, that’s stretching a bit.
I think that not trusting the news in the WSJ is a good indicator of being in a partisan bubble.
Trusting it is just as much being in a partisan bubble. I don’t trust any of them honestly. Any corporately owned media I automatically have a bias against. And that’s not a bad thing. Because I know what their bottom line is and I know what’s important to them.
That does not mean that they cannot have a good reporters and reporting. That happens much less often. Far less often than it used to even. But you only trust reporters. And those who have earned it. The outlets that they belong to are superficial.
Rupert media is using the outfits former credibility to launder batshit opinion and twisted facts to push an agenda as much as any place else these days. Even if I tend to agree with things they publish that I see. You never trust a capitalist. Well to do anything other than enrich themselves that is.
The IBA says this was not a testosterone test, which means it’s referring to a genetic test.
At no point has the IBA said it was a genetic test, nor has it shared the results of any test.
The Snopes article conflates the unfounded claims that these athletes are transgender with the more serious claims that their testosterone levels are outside the standard female range, and then dismisses the latter based on evidence against the former. Your article does a much better job at distinguishing these claims and addresses each one thoughtfully and in detail.
The sort of zero-information Twitter posters making this a “woke” issue one way or the other should be ignored. With that said, I think its valid to criticize the IOC for the lack of standards and testing which would exclude athletes with masculine levels of testosterone from women’s competitions. I also think that the IBA’s accusations are currently unsupported by any publicly-available evidence; respect for the athletes’ medical privacy would justify this in a normal situation, but the IBA is both untrustworthy and motivated to cause specifically this sort of controversy.
The athletes caught in the middle may actually be biologically typical women, in which case the entire controversy is moot. I wonder if they will volunteer to be tested by some reliable third party in order to settle this issue. They aren’t obligated to, but I admit that if they don’t then I will be suspicious about their motives.
They already have been “tested” and passed.
Interesting how you want to draw a hard line around something with extremely fuzzy borders, almost like you want to control the world instead of understand it…
Are you saying that the IOC tested the testosterone levels of these athletes? That’s not something I have read anywhere else. Do you have a link?
The hard line is between athletes who are allowed to compete in the women’s games and athletes who aren’t. There’s no possibility of fuzziness there.
“… no possibility of fuzziness there.”
… and yet you ask ME to provide the proof. Just move along bigot. At least if you value your life.
Removed by mod
You did say
She is, however, chromosomally male (DSD)
which I think is not a conclusion that can be confidently reached given the available evidence.
This is a summary of my take on the controversy surrounding Olympic boxing. If any facts are wrong, please help me correct them. Sorry for the long thread.
And then that’s it. There’s no additional information.
I got banned from a lemmy community for saying the same thing. Less even.
What the heck? Why would they do something like that? Banning a person for blatantly lying about a subject they know nothing about in the first place? That’s so weird!
-
I never said a lie
-
I know te subject as much as anyone here
The problem is that some subjects are tabu here and they should not even be mentioned, let alone discussed. Its ironic and quite idiotic considering what extreme views you can find on the same lemmy communities.
-
Yes, you did.
-
No, you don’t.
Yeah it’s so taboo, look how little discussion is going on here. Although I guess it might seem like that when you ignore all the comments disproving your misinformation.
-
nope
-
yes I most certainly do. But you on the other hand are way out of your depth
What are you even taking about? Now you are just pulling stuff out of your dumb ass. Nobody is proving or disproving anything here. Just a lot of hysteria and insults.
Pointless. I will leave you to your warm and cozy bubble where any challenge is met with vitriol and vomit. Bye.
Cool thanks. Have fun continuing not to watch or support women’s combat sports and deciding you get to have terrible opinions about subjects you’re completely uninformed on!
-
-
-
It’s weird. I’m left-wing but am being accused of being right-wing because I believe men should not compete in women’s sports.
Two hundred years ago, a woman was someone’s property. Now, apparently, it’s just a feeling, or something that is defined by a passport rather than chromosomes. Women are losing their rights to men who are taking over every aspect of their sex and it makes me angry.
You’re being down voted because you’re asserting something maliciously as fact that there’s no actual evidence of.
No, instead someone’s gender should be determined by randos on the internet who believe lies spread by corrupt Russian boxing officials. As God intended. /s
Or you should? Wtf are you taking about.
Relax. Not everything you don’t like is a corrupt Russian trying to hurt your feelings.
That’s the whole point. A person’s gender shouldn’t be up to you to decide, for @[email protected] to decide, or for some corrupt boxing organization located in a country known for it’s anti-lgbtq+ stance to decide.
We can only go by the facts in this case. The only fact that matters here is that Imane Khelif says she is a woman. The IBA has produced no facts to the contrary, only unsubstantiated claims, and they are not a trustworthy source.
Even if she does have some chromosomal difference, and we have no idea if that is true, that is not something that would matter in the Olympics, because it’s not against their rules. So, it’s really a moot point anyway.
But I’m not trying to decide it. I never had. I think she should be able to compete. She was competing before, the other competitors were not against it.
What I’m saying is that women sports have this issue because conditions do arise in body development. I’m not saying imame has it (all though all the circumstantial evidence first point to it, but that’s beside the point).
But whenever I mention this and I get attacked. There looks like there is no room for discussion here. It’s either a ban, or people start to rain on with person insults and strawmen. I find it really interesting. Usually in these situations there’s is a lot of room for people to grow. I’m trying to see if anyone will be able to calm down enough first.
You started a tirade against someone without any evidence available yet.
IBA claimed that she was ineligible due to some unspecified test they did. Perhaps they will disclose tomorrow.
Everything points out that this ban was political to protect a Russian boxer who lost to her. Khelif fought for many years she also lost 9 times to other women, but just that one time when she fought to Russian boxer she got disqualified by organization that itself got disqualified for corruption and ties with Kremlin.
Why start with some conspiracy theory? Why are some people so much against talking about this issue. I got banned just bringing it up. Everybody here thinks the best action is to ban all mention of the issue and pretend it doesn’t exist.
Why start with some conspiracy theory?
Like that she’s not a woman? that conspiracy theory?
Don’t play stupid, you know very well I mean a conspiracy with the Russian boxer.
Because the IBA is a conspiratorial organization. that’s why IOC banned them.
Yes every boxing organization is. What’s your point?
Then you surely agree that we should be questioning their integrity in this matter, right?
Also consider there have been no other transgender-related controversies around these olympics except for the two initiated by the IBA.
Why can’t you just own up to the fact that you hate this person for no rational reason?
First she was trans and when that didn’t work it was hormones and when that didn’t work it was testosterone and when that didn’t work it was chromosomes and now that this isn’t working I’m genuinely curious what rabbit you’ll pull out of your hat this time.
