It all started with the unofficial godot discord admin dealing with some chuds and people turning their ire towards the Godot Foundation staff instead.
Since Godot has stubbornly remained on the Xitter nazi bar as a valid space for PR and social media interaction and dared to promote the Wokot hashtag and reiterate their progessiveness, the reactionaries infesting that space are now piling on their socials and harassing everyone they can get their eyes on.
Examples
- https://x.com/LifeArtStudios/status/1840230152254509067
- https://x.com/Grummz/status/1840162056928145740
- https://x.com/madewithgodot/status/1841118786964840618
Anyway, solidarity with the targets of harassment. I hope they finally realize that Xitter is a lost cause.
Update: Godot is being review-bombed
Fortunately the reactionary backlash seems to be having the opposite effect
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Open source software is the wokest shit possible… It’s pretty much digital communism run by the gayest furries you’ll ever meet.
I can’t tell if you intent this as a positive or a negative, but it very much an accurate assessment.
Positive. I love FOSS culture, for the most part.
Love the communist gay furry part of it, the digital part not so much.
Why would you think it was negative? My only guess would be the way Leninists like to cosplay as Communists. And the way the west likes to smear communists by associating them with leninists.
I bookmarked this comment. It’s beautiful
It kinda depends on the license. Copyleft licenses are definitely digital communism–but licenses like CC or other extremely permissive licenses are digital libertarianism. I’m good with it in any case.
cc-by-sa is copyleft
With programming socks 🧦
Anyway love OSS ❤️
But there comes Brian Lundurke with his “um ackchually, if it were digital communism the state would be forcing you to make it open source, capitalism is when small state”.
Left libertarianism is a thing too! One difference is employee ownership of companies as opposed to state or private ownership of companies.
I know, I’m a left-libertarian, but people that are dumb for politics and think left=authoritarianism right=liberty.
Nice to see some figures on the change in support levels. I was donating €5 a month and I’ve bumped it up to €50 for the next few months.
I get the impression that a lot of the people complaining on twitter are not even gamedevs and don’t know what Godot is, it’s just the reactionary pile-on du jour.
a lot of the people complaining on twitter are not even gamedevs and don’t know what Godot is
You’re probably right. Homophobes aren’t the brightest of the bunch.
… since when did the project have customers lol?
is a service or product receiver only a customer if they are paying money?
I wouldn’t say it has to be money. Just that it has to be a formal exchange. I’d say the open source donation model is more “informal”.
I guess technically businesses like Microsoft were customers; I think there was something about them paying Godot to support C#.
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The flagbearer is ofc grummz, the terminally online ex-gamedev chud who turned to shit every game he touched and has had his right-wing grifting platform on Xitter massively boosted in recent years.
I don’t know shit about the situation (I don’t use twitter), but not being on the same side as Mark “Physiognomy” Kern seems like the right call.
Unsurprisingly most gamedevs, at least the ones that make good games, are either minorities themselves, or positive to their/our plight
After all, the best art isn’t made by the people who enshrine conservative ideals
This is thoroughly untrue. Joshua and the Promised Land is the greatest piece of media of our generation.
This is evident in a few ways:
- How they subtly or glaringly misunderstand what it is and what it does
- How they call it “a company”
- How they pronounce it as GO-DOT
I’m new here, and I’ve been calling it “go-dot”. What’s the correct pronunciation?
@overcast5348 @moormaan The correct pronounciation is “Guh-Doh” or “Go-Doh”. Honestly, a lot of people pronounce it Go-dot, so it isn’t a big deal. But it is based of the play “Waiting for Godot” where they usually pronounce it like I have mentioned.
Agreed, no big deal. But YouTubers who knew about it before this controversy will typically use the intended pronouncing, and it’s easy to spot those who didn’t care much about it until this all started.
The lead developer Juan Linietsky pronounces it go-dot as well, though with the emphasis on the second syllable (arguably just a matter of accent). I also prefer that pronunciation. A lot of people pronounce it as if it’s French, since it happens to have a name that’s also known from a French play (see: the other replies).
I think it’s a GIF situation. Either way is broadly acceptable (though some people gatekeep on it; see above).
It sounds like G-DOUGH.
Opinions vary, but since it’s a reference to the Samuel Beckett play “Waiting for Godot”, the most common are GOD-oh (Irish style, I call it) and guh-DOH (French style).
There are people doing tutorials on YouTube who pronounce it go-dot, I wouldn’t really consider it an indicator of somebody who is unfamiliar with the engine myself tbh. I think the developers have basically said “pronounce it however you want”.
It’s actually really funny to see review bomb attempts on a non-profit FOSS project. No shareholders to appease, no profits to they need to protect, just a community of people contributing to the tool they use.
I’d say, it’s a bit concerning since review bombing can turn away people who are uncertain about using Godot, or donating to it.
As a dev, seeing a bunch of reactionary fuck heads criticising Godot would make it more appealing. I like working with good people
I would be curious how many people in that boat find themselves looking at steam reviews in order to make a decision. It didn’t even occur to me until this happened that the reviews exist.
I also did not know the page existed
I’d hope that people using reviews have figured out by now that you don’t just go by the summary but actually read some of the reviews to see if the issues even resonate with you.
Personally, a bunch of negative reviews whining about how woke something is would make me dismiss the negative reviews in general, so this could give it a boost with people like me, just from drowning out more legitimate complaints.
I mean, if it was a game and not an engine I had already started playing around with.
I genuinely don’t think people are basing donations to FOSS projects based on Steam reviews tbh…
I also don’t think that most developers would use steam when they first follow tutorials
I long for the days when people didn’t call any concept they disagreed with “political.”
Oh so you’re a conservative!
/s
Finally a place I can share my cold takes. (I’m not on Twitter, I won’t discuss this on Reddit either.)
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The community manager had a meltdown and blocking everyone was a power trip and was wrong.
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Godot’s tweet was wrong, because it used the word “woke” which immediately drives any conversation into the gutter. Doesn’t matter if you’re on the right or left, as soon as you say the word “woke” you have ruined the conversation.
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It is good that Godot explicitly supports LGBT+ people. They should be welcome. The community CoC should make this explicit, and it does. A tweet to reaffirm this is fine, a cringe joke born from the dredges of Twitter is less fine.
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Godot’s “revenge forks” are amusing and will not go anywhere. Someone might collect some donations before grifting into the night though.
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None of this has any effect on Godot’s technical suitability for creating a game.
I’ll share mine too.
The community manager had a meltdown and blocking everyone was a power trip and was wrong.
Apparently they did receive a large number of tweets that genuinely warranted a ban, but some innocent people got caught in the crossfire. If this is true then Godot did the right thing by responding as neutrally as they can and giving people a way to get unbanned. If it’s not, then yeah very wrong.
Additionally, the Twitter manager apparently said some unprofessional stuff on her personal. I think there was something about her requesting a shower pic from a very large controversial streamer. I feel like that sort of action would bring attention from trolls.
Also I think there was something about a discord mod saying some dehumanising things about the “anti woke” people. Even if these people were causing trouble and deserved a ban, you shouldn’t dehumanise them. That will just make them more aggressive and convince them that “woke” people are indeed some kind of adversary.
Godot’s tweet was wrong, because it used the word “woke” which immediately drives any conversation into the gutter. Doesn’t matter if you’re on the right or left, as soon as you say the word “woke” you have ruined the conversation.
I think that word is loosely defined. To the drama people “woke/wokism” seems to relate to the idea of people aggressively wanting all media to contain pro lgbt messaging. I think the official meaning relates to awareness of modern issues. “Woke” seems to be a political term, but I suppose some people feel like calling “woke” political is harmful to lgbt rights?
I think inviting people to present their “wokot” is fine, but it probably shouldn’t be done from an official account.
It is good that Godot explicitly supports LGBT+ people. They should be welcome. The community CoC should make this explicit, and it does. A tweet to reaffirm this is fine, a cringe joke born from the dredges of Twitter is less fine.
Hard agree! Strongly agree!
Godot’s “revenge forks” are amusing and will not go anywhere. Someone might collect some donations before grifting into the night though. None of this has any effect on Godot’s technical suitability for creating a game.
Agreed. Give it a year or two. Possibly sooner. It’ll be somewhat interesting if they do go somewhere and contribute something, although I doubt that will happen.
Regardless of what happened and how it will turn out. If Godot increased their budget, even if it was in an unprofessional way, I guess this is an entirely positive thing for people who aren’t on those proprietary social platforms.
Revenge fork is a weird name for these forks. A fork is a fork, even a tiny change like changing the logo is a legitimate fork.
If anything if the Godot community could stop harassing the fork owners, that would be great. Them receiving harassment is the most ironic part about this, because there is more proof of that than the harassment the Godot community manager claims they faced.
Yup. I dont give a fuck about politics or the goobers fanning this drama. Im just here to learn game dev
20% by 20%, the progress bar of me agreeing with this assessment went to a 100% as I was reading it.
as soon as you say the word “woke” you have ruined the conversation.
And as soon as you have “banned” a word from conversation regardless of context, you have ruined your credibility (in my eyes, obviously).
I did not suggest banning any words.
To understand why I’m opposed to the word “woke”, you must first acknowledge this fact:
Sometimes people have different definitions of the same word.
If you’re willing to accept that, then it logically follows that using a word that people have different definitions of will cause more confusion than understanding. If our goal in speaking is to convey understanding, then that is best accomplished by avoiding words where people have conflicting definitions.
We’ve all learned that there are facts and opinions, but there is a third category: definitions.
If you watch for it, you will see that many disagreements boil down to nothing more than disagreeing about the definition of a single word. If we temporarily avoid using that word, suddenly we find ourselves in agreement, or at least having a better understanding of each other.
This is a pretty common challenge in philosophy with a very obvious solution:
Define the controversial word (or words) at the top. It’s done all the time in science articles or legal documents.
You can even compound it to point out it’s your version (like calling it Lefty-woke).
By avoiding it, imo, you let them win and “claim” the word, since in their worldview, everyone is now using it like them.
Having said that, this is just my approach, I think the issue with politics is that people assume everyone is using the same language. You got to affirm or confirm that first.
Also, ironically, I think we are talking about the same thing, just using different words lol.
I hear you. It’s no good to just cede ownership of a word and allow others to define it however suits them. But… it’s Twitter, getting into a good faith philosophical discussion about the definitions of words ain’t going to happen, so in many cases it’s better to just not bring up the controversial words at all. Guess there’s pros and cons to each.
Sometimes people have different definitions of the same word.
Except you’re dealing with the character limit of twitter. It’s not really a platform for complex discussions and greatly favors simpler, more extreme views. If you’re spending the limited character limit and attention span of your audience on dictionary definitions, you’re doing it wrong. It’s better to be simple, but precise and not to get bogged down in the lexicon.
Sometimes people have different definitions of the same word.
In the US that’s done to sabotage progressive movements.
I mean, there are plenty of words that are used almost exclusively to cause offensive. Swears and slurs. Often it can be debatable whether or not a word counts as a swear or slur, but it’s usually pretty clear. I prefer to avoid using words that are intended to cause offence.
The word “woke” doesn’t seem to fall into these categories, but it’s still a term that seems to have been polarised by both groups. I don’t think that word would ruin a discussion that was already political, but it would definitely cause a discussion to become political.
As far as one group is concerned, being “woke” is inherently good and means being aware of modern issues and accepting of marginalised groups.
As far as the other is concerned, being “woke” is requiring all media to have this representation and lashing out when it isn’t inserted in a certain way; thus, you can be supportive of lgbt+ rights and the rights of marginalised groups while still being vehemently “anti woke”.Because of this conflict in definitions it’s understandable that the Twitter manager might want to use this term, and it’s understandable that people would be against it.
I feel the polarisation of this term may be being done for the drama people on both sides to farm engagement.
“Woke” is a problem because people have different definitions, and no matter what Webster or any other authority says the definition is, people will continue to have differing definitions.
How can we reach understanding when we don’t even agree on the definition of words?
This is way to nuanced to deal with on fucking Twitter. If you use the word “woke” on Twitter, expect a lot of misunderstanding, talking past each other, and bad faith arguments to follow.
When something really matters all we have is conversation, or violence. Words do not actually have innate definitions - they have usages that vary between individuals and between peoples over time. If we can understand what the person we’re talking to means then maybe we can come to understand each other.
I agree. That’s why I suggest (or more like implied) that when we know we have different definitions of a word, we avoid using that word. It’s a good thing to at least try if two people really care about understanding.
I agree and did that for the word “homophobia”. Saying it lead to a common response “I’m not afraid” but “having a phobia” wasn’t the subject matter (instead I say “aversion to homosexuality”, though I don’t have that conversation now since leaving Facebook/YouTube years ago).
How can we reach understanding when we don’t even agree on the definition of words?
I actually think this is the reason why there is so much polarization, we are literally talking different languages.
I’m not saying both sides are the same, the opposite actually, one side is willing to use standardized definitions or just use new ones specific to the discussion/debate.
The other side realized they can make people believe in a fascist fantasy by changing the meaning and more importantly, the emotional response behind the meaning.
And it’s not new, this is what it always comes down to. I argue for socialism because I am arguing for cooperating and equal ownership, others argue against it because they (for whatever fucking reason) hear tyranny cause you know, regulations means less freedom.
Pssshhh take your elitist “credibility” and GTFO. What is this world coming to, everyone blind to the “credibility” agenda. What America needs is for you weak childish credible mongers to wake up to the real world, don’t you know “credible experts” are just propaganda machines paid off by big academia? Back in my day, people told the truth as it was, now “credibility” is shoved down our throats everywhere you go. /S
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It was just a tweet… And then they say that the “wokes” are the hypersensitive snowflakes?
It’s always projection.
Twitter blows ass and if they hate you you’re probably right.
Not guaranteed. But a solid bet.
That’s a great way to look at it. You’re probably spot on.
Woke is interestingly becoming a word that can easily trigger and be used to troll conservatives.
My favourite thing is asking them to define woke.
I woke up this morning.
Angry fascist noises
Bobby Fingers has the best definition of “woke,” one that I feel all can agree with, even if they are dismayed by the quality of his dashboards.
My favourite thing is asking them to define woke.
IMHO, you are woke if you exclude/damage who does not think exactly like you, and later also who thinks like you but he/she is not excluding/damaging the people you put in the black-list.
So it is a rather toxic and dangerous movement, resembling a little the Reign of Terror in France.
@mzan @Grandwolf319 So…The KKK is woke by your definition?
The definition was incomplete and a provocation. KKK acted in the name of white supremacy, while woke acts in the name of Social Justice. Obviously woke culture is a lot lot lot less violent of KKK. KKK were criminals. With woke culture at maximum you will do some years in prison due to false accusations, because you should “believe all women”, or you will loose the job, and you will never find similar jobs, for some nasty comment you done on some platform when you were a teenager… It can be compared also to McCarthyism.
In any case, the negative part of woke culture is the fanatism. Without the fanatism aspect, I will call a woke, an activist into social justice themes. I like activists. I’m scared from fanatics.
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Oh, here comes the enlightened centrist! 🤣🤣🤣
We already have a word for that, it’s called tribalism.
So… You have no clue what the word means
Woke is an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English originally meaning alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to be used as slang for a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights
What are you on about?
Comparing woke to the reign of terror is a fucking mood buddy
Could you give examples of “woke” media and how it fits this definition?
I feel like it’s important to note that eating, breathing, and having a fun time with friends are all very LGBTQ+ activities! #woke
Let the fascist idiots stay with predatory tech like Unity. Fuck 'em all. Conservatives make shit games; they can stick with shit middleware.
Fascist usually can’t make games. Best they can do is either some mod, or a kusoge that only has some recognition thanks to it was in a country where English education wasn’t very good thus it was among the few easily accessible game for some.
I stand in solidarity with Godot.
Time for Godot to get off Twitter.
I mean, it seems Godot did make money from this, so I guess the Twitter helped.
this would actually be quite a losss because it would let the fascist trolls win :(
They won the day Musky bought the site. At this point Twitter needs a mercy killing.
Can’t say I disagree but I feel sorry for indy devs who don’t have social media options that are as useful for marketing
Yeah good point but I still think the general public is still looking at Twitter though
Grrrr!! I hate WOKE! 😡😡 /s
Fortunately the reactionary backlash seems to be having the opposite effect
That’s good I suppose.
I don’t care what happens on Twitter. Just so long as the codebase isn’t negatively affected.
I have been seeing some drama YouTubers, who are clearly blowing this out of proportion, talk a lot about this. One thing they’ve been saying that concerns me however, is that apparently there have been people getting banned from help forums and even the GitHub for criticism.
My understanding is that “woke” is a loosely defined political term, so I think requesting Godot be kept free from politics in response to this stuff isn’t something that should require a ban.
Perhaps there were people going too far and getting rightfully banned and some innocent people got caught in the crossfire?
There shouldn’t be any way the MIT license can discriminate between “woke” and “anti-woke”. Godot can be used by everyone. This is just making the drama people lose their credibility. Regardless of what the devs views on this situation are, I could never expect them to come to a decision on this issue so quickly. Let alone act on it. Their main priority should be the code, not the community. Unofficial communities can pop up on their own and self govern.
One thing they’ve been saying that concerns me however, is that apparently there have been people getting banned from help forums and even the GitHub for criticism.
Perhaps there were people going too far and getting rightfully banned and some innocent people got caught in the crossfire?
They’ve addressed that:
We unequivocally condemn this abuse. The volume of negative engagement overwhelmed our moderation efforts. While attempting to protect the Godot community we mistakenly blocked individuals who were not participating in the harassment. The Godot Foundation Board takes full responsibility for these moderation actions. If you believe you were blocked in error and have not violated our Code of Conduct, please contact us with the form linked below. We are committed to swiftly rectifying any mistakes. We firmly stand by our mission to keep our community spaces free from hate, discrimination, and other toxic behaviors. - The Godot Foundation Board
And there have been 5 people banned from GitHub due to racist and homophobic slurs, which violates Godot CoC and GH ToS.
I don’t think these users were providing valid criticism. Never mind the fact that GH issues are not really the place to complain about some twitter drama.Thanks.
My understanding is that “woke” is a loosely defined political term, so I think requesting Godot be kept free from politics in response to this stuff isn’t something that should require a ban.
I’m a bit 50/50 on that. If they got kinda harassed to the point where they take a simple stance as they did, then saying “please stop being political” is often used as a thin veiled attempt to say “I don’t like your politics” by the people who get so hard triggered by that term, and women, and LGBT stuff, and people of color, etc.
We can see this all the time in other areas too, especially gaming. As soon as a game has a female main character, or even a female main character that isn’t white, or even one that is lesbian or bi, then uppercase Gamers collectively lose their shit. Say something about Nazis? Or Russia? “HoW DaRe YoU BrInG PoLiTiCs InTo MY GaMes!” …
Not saying that was the guy’s intend when he replied that to Godot, but I can see how it could be interpreted as such when they get brigaded by a bunch of toxic replies.
This never crossed my mind, but you are right. Online interactions do lack a lot of context, and it must have been hard (or practically impossible) to discern genuine from malicious calls to remain apolitical in a situation of intense online harassment.
That’s why it’s considered good practice to act on the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
You’re fully entitled to use Godot if you’re an asshole.
You’re not inherently entitled to interact with their development process or get their help, etc. They aren’t obligated to deal with bullshit to run an open source project.
Considering game devs are intimately aware of review bombing, I really doubt that it will have much negative effect on their userbase. I guess the next Alex Jones game wont use godot.
You’d think so, but fascists are generally cheap and will happily use whatever they can that’s made by liberals and leftists. See mastodon being created because of a rumor of Peter Theil buying it and then it’s code was used to run Truth social.
The remark is about how few conservative games there even are. Most games I can think of either lean left or have no political commentary in them.
Conservatives aren’t intelligent and making games is hard
To be fair I do the same shit. Cock.li is useful for burner emails. They can eat shit if they think they’re getting my money for hosting though.
Same with DWM, good window manager, asshole devs.
Just don’t give them money or code.
