I have always tried to pronounce names correctly, and I have a decent ear. However, with some languages, I apparently can’t hear some distinctions; there have been times when I was certain I was mimicking the sounds correctly, but the person repeatedly corrected me. It’s not (necessarily) that I can’t make the sounds, it’s that I can’t hear the difference between what’s right and what I’m saying. Chinese is one of those; I can’t get the romanized X and Z right.
Like a Japanese person trying to differentiate between l and r.
You don’t even have to go outside of English for examples. See: the pen/pin distinction in English: some speakers have it, some can hear it when I speak, and some can’t.
Aye, it’s curious how one’s upbringing affects their hearing. The Americans I interacted with can’t tell the Czech P and B apart. Which I find fucking weird as mixing them up in Czech results in absolute gibberish. Probably similar to how TH and F sound the same to me.
The X in romanized Chinese is particularly bad, because depending on what part of China, HK, or Taiwain (or other Chinese-speaking country) the person is from, they would pronounce it quite differently. Enough that if you learned from one, the others would try to correct your pronunciation, assuming that you learned it wrong.
Not hearing the difference is absolutely a thing. I took a university class on the nature of language and I still have clear memories of some of the example videos we watched when we studied the phenomenon. It’s a very “how is this possible” kind of feeling.
Iirc it just depends on the language(s) you spoke while developing. You could probably hear the difference when you were very little.
I’m gunna imagine this was you asking to get it perfect instead of close enough? ‘Cause then I can see them trying to help and the sound being a little tricky.
From my experience it seems like people, in general, would just rather a barely approximate attempt. The guy in the comic isn’t even trying to get it right and if they are then I’m sorry but they are profoundly stupid. It’s english words smashed together, we have the sounds and not even getting close is honestly pathetic.
It’s true that everyone is different. I’ve known people across the spectrum, who’d pick English names they liked the sound of (“Pearl”) and would refuse to tell me their given name; people who had long ago adopted nicknames to make it easier for foreigners (“JC”, “Raj”); folks who obviously didn’t give a shit (“eh, course enough”); but also the occasional person who’d go back and fourth with me on the pronunciation until we mutually realized it wasn’t going to happen.
Sometimes it do be like that, humans will human
I always appreciate when people try, even if they suck. All you can ask of someone is that they try, it’s a good philosophy for life as well. Otherwise you’ll just be angry all the time.
Yeah but that would make for an even shittier comic.
"I sing, i sang i sung. You win, you’ve won.
Sung won.
SANGJWINN?" -proZD
quote context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1RKkRCiU90
“… Do you have an English name?”
Also, Bridge 4
Bridge 4!
Also, I know you’re quoting the video, but I do not and it has resulted in many similar situations.
Funnily enough, Shawn is the anglicisation of the Irish name Seán, so spelled for the reasons outlined in the OP.
I’m a super white lady living in a pretty multicultural area. Sadly I feel like I mostly experience the opposite here from my non-white friends. Those with names from their ancestral culture (is that a good way to put it? Not sure) either ignore our mispronunciations or simply adopt western names. I had a coworker from Shanghai whose name I always said wrong because of the inflection. It makes me sad that they kind of give up trying to teach people to pronounce their names correctly, but at the same time, I get it. It’s a lot of constant work and some of us white people, or other non-whites from different cultures, just aren’t going to try or see why it’s important. I probably wouldn’t force the issue either if it were me, but man, what a constant way to feel othered.
Ah, see, here’s the problem; I’m not Shawn either.
after a lifetime of “fatty patty boom bah laddy” taken in good humor i’m not feeling the rage here
I’d’ve pronounced it “Yu-shu-wann” first-try, probably.
*"Hi. Sorry if I get your name wrong, but… is it ‘Yuxuan’?"
Ok, but x sounding like sh is not ok. We need to normalize spelling stuff like it’s pronounced. Otherwise every language is going to become like the English.
I have bad news for you. Spelling like it’s pronounced is heavily subjective and opinion based. Virtually every single language in living use has deviating pronunciation to some degree.
I disagree. X is a useless letter in English; it’s always copying other letters or combinations of letters. Meanwhile, there’s a special rule where putting an ‘s’ and an ‘h’ together makes a different sound. Why not have a single letter for that?
Because a diphthong is fine. Taking a already used character and assigning a new sound to it is going to make things hard.
Also I need you to argue not just from the English point of view, but all Latin alphabet using languages, in particular those with strict rules of pronunciation like German.
I think you really miss the point. It’s as if your suggestion that romanization methods have imperfections dismisses the actual reasons why people will refuse to make the effort to learn how to pronounce a name from a language other than their own, which go far beyond whether or not the spelling “makes sense”.
The comic gives a very concrete example of that. It wouldn’t matter if the letters exactly mapped to a perfect pronunciation, the mere fact it does not roll of the tongue, i.e. “sounds foreign”, coupled with the underlying xenophobia+racism combo is what’s at work there.
strict pronounciation rules german
Nah, this aint it. Finnish has strict pronounciation rules but German is pretty loose.
It doesn’t really sound like “sh” though, it’s a different phoneme. You place the tip of your tongue in the centre of the gum ridge behind your bottom teeth, rather than the top one. They have that noise as well, and - unsurprisingly I suppose - it is written “sh”. The former is a totally unfamiliar sound to a native English speaker, most people need that kind of specific coaching to produce it. Pinyin isn’t perfect, I agree, but it primarily exists to be used by Chinese people who already know how their own language sounds.
Do people place the tip of their tongue on something when pronouncing “sh”?
Not quite, but that’s where the channel for the air is formed, if you see what I mean. Placing the tongue is a cue for teaching the tongue position.
“Eichhörnchenschwanz” is spelt exactly like it’s pronounced. Does this help you pronounce it?
Yes, but only because I’m familiar with German. And I’d still mess it up when trying to pronounce it.
familiar with German
Exactly. Different languages have different phonology that you have to be familiar with, there is no one way to “spell it like it’s pronounced” (except IPA and even that can be tricky).
Bad take. You don’t shame people for being unable to make sounds that aren’t in their native language. If someone spoke Mandarin all their life and learned English, but had to approximate the “L” sound with “R”, you wouldn’t have this reaction claiming that allowing that approximation is turning everything into Mandarin
Why is there a correct way? What’s the correct way of pronouncing j? German, English, and Spanish have three different ways to pronounce it.
pinyin (system to write Chinese in Latin letters) is way more consistent than English spelling.
Skill issue, get good
Well, in IPA, the “sh” sound is spelt “ʃ”. But “x” isn’t pronounced like in English either (and it’s not like it’s that consistent in English, it like “ks” in “experience” but like “gz” in “exam”). Instead, “x” in IPA is like “j” in Spanish.
And of course the biggest source of the IPA /x/ sound in English is Scottish and Irish words that will spell it “ch”
If you want everything in Chinese to spelled right, then learn Kanji.
