Now that everyone has had a chance to argue all day about this, I’m gonna lock this post so you can go touch grass.
I agree that Drag is a massive troll and that user has been banned from many instances over the past few months, including this one.
Maybe try leaving it up to the folks at blajah to decide what they want to be called and maybe just play along with it, even if you find it weird. “Normal” is so fucking boring anyway. If you really can’t cope with occasionally coming across an unusual pronoun and being asked to simply accept it without having a meltdown, you probably don’t belong on blajah anyway. Just move on.
The “gatekeeping” bans seem like a BPR to me given the context in which it was posted. Having said that, I don’t entirely understand the rationale for blajah’s rule, since the effect seems to be that you either need to be 100% behind fantasy neo-pronouns and identities (including drag? dragonfucker??) or cop a ban, but if that’s how they want things then that’s up to them. Not every space is for everyone, and diversity of communities and instances is mostly a good thing.
As far as our instance (dbzer0) goes, malicious/intentional misgendering of users is not permitted, similar to blajah. However, like others in this thread have argued, I agree that someone who literally identifies as a dragon fucker does not deserve to be taken seriously about anything, and it’s entirely reasonable to simply assume the choice of pronouns is just another form of trolling. The context and drag’s extensive mod history (along with previous alts) are important factors here too.
It’s also concerning to me that people are being attacked and reported for being “bigots” or “anti-trans” in the comments just because they have hesitations over what are effectively contentious edge cases involving neo-pronouns and an infamous troll. I know for a fact that many of the commenters in this thread are very supportive of trans people, trans rights and respecting a person’s chosen gender pronouns. They just have a problem with this particular dragon-fucker, not because Drag is trans, but because Drag is a narcissistic troll and a community wrecker who thrives on all the drama.
I’m leaving the comments intact for the record, but will add a CW below:
CW: possible misgendering in comments below, at least if you agree dragon fucker is a gender
come on blahaj, yall are better than this.
Dragonfucker has multiple times said that if you’re feeling suicidal, then you should instead get a gun and start shooting Trump supporters.
If you’re planning on killing yourself, go buy a gun and take a red hat with you. Drag is serious. Get out if you can. Move to another country. But if you’re actually hopeless, and there’s nothing anyone can say to dissuade you… Then make it count.
https://lemmy.nz/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=12587481
I thought originally that this was a big non-issue and only relevant because of the bans. This user is, it turns out, actively endangering trans people’s lives by what they like to post on Lemmy. The people who are getting suckered into supporting them in their whole shtick, thinking they’re modeling what it means to be an ally to a fellow trans person, need to wise the fuck up.
Inb4 “as a non-trans person you don’t have the right to say that.” I’ve talked with more than a few suicidal people during some variety of crisis. If you support the user that creates that type of posting, because the user in question is using pronouns, wake the fuck up.
also also, dufuq is this comment section? People need to chill out.
I’m still not sure if drag is a troll. They’re definitely attention seeking though.
Lol this dingus is going to effectively defederate blaja by getting everyone banned
You can do whatever you want… however, so too can they. I may or may not agree with either side (fwiw Drag is obviously trolling, though that also seems entirely irrelevant?), but I defend blahaj’s right to do as they please on their own instance - which they pay for and maintain with little help from others on the Fediverse? - and the post “Neopronouns are not trolling” seems fairly clear to me.
My problem lies rather with how that is not communicated clearly to people. It is not linked in the sidebar, it is not pinned even on lemmy.blahaj.zone, it is in a community that I at first thought was Local-Only b/c it was difficult to find from Lemmy.World (b/c of the different display “Blahaj Lemmy Meta” vs. link-to names [email protected]) - although it also seems cross-posted to 196 (but why MUST someone be subscribed to that one?) - and especially: when you visit that (cross-)post from some other instance, let’s say lemmy.world via this link, the only text you see on the sidebar is for c/196, not the sidebar of lemmy.blahaj.zone, or from this link the text for the Meta community is equally uninformative, plus most apps don’t show any sidebar text by default anyway, either burying it behind several button presses or perhaps not making it available at all.
So if you just wandered into a post federated and therefore hosted elsewhere, you may have no clue what is going on there? This is exasperated further by the sidebar text of [email protected] or [email protected] stating “other rules” which links to Lemmy.World, even when visited while on lemmy.blahaj.zone!?!? And then that post says nothing whatsoever about neopronouns - the closest mention is “prejudice of any kind” is banned but this is definitely a more contentious issue that those 4 words do not next to nothing to clarify. Also I don’t see much of anything in the Lemmy.World ToS that would apply - possibly the text about “misinformation” but again, that seems far from clear, and more for an issue where the admins of Lemmy.World and the admins of lemmy.blahaj.zone would need to come to some kind of mutual agreement or at least understanding.
The tools made available on the Fediverse to help guide people into understanding what the rules are are abysmally inadequate. Ada can run their own instance however they wish, though it sure would be good to find better ways to communicate the expected behaviors rather than “ban people” or “not ban people” after waiting for them to walk into this issue unknowingly. I guess there is also “defederate from lemmy.blahaj.zone” vs. “not defederate from lemmy.blahaj.zone” as well - though it sucks that no other options in-between have yet been presented here. Beehaw at least has its core principles statement, though it too is not linked to from anywhere unless you visit the instance explicitly in order to investigate it (except from PieFed, where a message is presented - that’s fucking awesome!:-D).
Things like this are why imho the Fediverse is not at all like merely using emails. There you simply click “Send” and it goes off to wherever it needs to be, but to navigate Lemmy without being banned for some off-hand remark requires quite a bit deeper knowledge than that.
So like, if you had read the aforementioned post about “Neopronouns are not trolling”, then YDI (which b/c people won’t read the sidebar even in this community, stands for “You Deserved It”:-D) for inciting drama? However, if you had not, I definitely see why it at least comes across as a BPR (“Bait-Provoked Reaction”), coming a day or two after that “announcement” had been made (which again, how were people supposed to have known that?). Therefore it is at least possible that you are both correct, and merely talking past one another, each not willing to find common ground with the other.
YDI.
The post clearly said “respect people’s pronouns, this rule will be enforced” and everyone getting mod action clearly states in response that they have read and understood the rules, but fully intend to break them.
There are absolutely ways to say “hey Ada, I think your judgement of this particular user is wrong and I am concerned about the damage drag does by engaging in trollish behavior” without also saying “but I plan to misgender people anyway.” The ones getting banned here fail on both counts.
They don’t use it as just a pronoun though, it’s inconsistent bullshit
All the more reason to just ignore. This is why OP deserves it for engaging.
IMO It’s just a false flag to enable arbitrary enforcement using subjective terminology
PugJesus is a transphobe, pass it on.
Blahaj.zone is a fucking disaster. I don’t remember any user accounts from that place who comment with any sort of sanity. It’s like the lemmygrad of the LBGTQIA+.
I wish instance blocks would block also all the users from that instance.
Blahaj.zone is a fucking disaster. I don’t remember any user accounts from that place who comment with any sort of sanity. It’s like the lemmygrad of the LBGTQIA+.
Tankies who enable Stalin worship = Wanting to be properly addressed now?
Why is it powertriping if you clearly broke the stated rules.
That’s like agreeing to a contract without any comolains and then complaining the contract is unfair if you break it.
Blahaj was never intended to be a free speech zone, it was intended to be the one place on the internet trans people feel safe, so they really don’t care what you think, it isn’t made for you.
As stated elsewhere here, most people would not interpret “Don’t question people’s gender identity” as “Don’t say dragons aren’t real or that people can’t be dragons”.
I disagree. It is a community for gender diverse folk and the rules are there to protect them. This is not about the dragon. It is about respecting someone’s identity. “Dragons aren’t real” in the context of someone identifying as a dragon is no different than a TERF telling a trans woman that trans women don’t exist. It it inherently questioning her identity, transphobic, and attacking her.
Can you see how that would be problematic? I think anyone surpise pikachu’ed by this should consider learning how to be a better ally instead of thinking they can say hurtful stuff.
I disagree.
As I said, ‘most people would not interpret’, and there is certainly a large number of people who quite clearly and vocally did not interpret the rule in the way that it has been clarified.
It it inherently questioning her identity,
Yes, in this case, because dragons are literally not real.
Questioning an identity that is at odds with reality is not a sin.
Okay, time for me to throw my hat into the ring. Dogs/Puppies are real, are they not? I use pup/pup’s pronouns as my preferred pronouns. I identify strongly with canine-kind. For example, I have dysphoria about my lack of a tail.
Will you respect my pronouns?
BTW, Ada clarifying the rules made me feel comfortable changing my displayname to include my preferred pronouns, FWIW.
PJ somehow thinks they are better than everyone else, also hates people he doesn’t understand. News at 11.
God he’s just going mask off at full speed.
As i said, it’s not about drag. Regardless if you think drag is trolling, there are people who identity as fae/faerie. Are you going to tell them they don’t exist too?
As i said, it’s not about drag. Regardless if you think drag is trolling, there are people who identity as fae/faerie. Are you going to tell them they don’t exist too?
If they mean ‘faerie’ as in ‘literally one of the fae folk’? Yes, this is not much of a surprise to anyone past the age of kindergarten, but the fae folk aren’t real either. Holy shit.
Sounds good. Thanks for making it easy to know who to block
Sounds good. Thanks for making it easy to know who to block
Christ.
Imagine being such a jaded fuck that you can’t simply allow someone to identify how they so choose. Eat shit, PugJesus
What does it mean to identify as a fae? Do they literally think they’re a fae from folklore?
And to be clear, this is a genuine question.
I’m no authority to speak on this, but I can say (gender) identity and pronouns aren’t necessarily linked. Some people might lean into the fairy thing for their aesthetic or identity, others wouldn’t. Some might use fae/faer pronouns explicitly to break out of the gender binary / ternary, others might just find that these pronouns fit them. I hope someone with more knowledge on the matter could weigh on.
Not actively and unprompted, but since you’re asking: yes, fae aren’t real (and if we ever discover them hiding somewhere, I’ll happily apologise!).
And no, I’m not a transphobe or whatever label you’re gonna try and put on me. But obvious trolls baiting people into getting banned, because dragons aren’t real no matter how you “identify”, are not a good look for you.
Looks like you prefer trolls to people who actually care about trans issues, in which case: good luck with your communities!
I suppose I should thank everyone in this comment section. I was initially feeling a little like I might have overreacted to an admin making a decision that no one in their right minds would actually defend when I sadposted on 196 about leaving, but seeing the wellspring of support for dragonfuckergender, I now feel comfortable in that leaving Blahaj is, indeed, the correct choice.
Bye, bigot. You’re not welcome anyway. You don’t get to question someone’s identity. Period. No matter what else they might have done, you do not get to question their identity.
You kinda just proved your opponents point 🤷
I don’t see how it’s bigoted to be concerned with trolls whose behaviour actively harms the LGBTQ+ movement. There are tons of comments of that user that show they’re just trolling and engaging in disingenuous behaviour.
The right to identify as X or Y or whatever is not being questioned, the sincerity of this user specifically is being questioned. And that’s done because there’s a history of people claiming to identify as X/Y when they have no intention of doing so, and just doing it to drive people away from LGBTQ+ acceptance.
Gatekeeping support is not the answer here.
Bye, bigot. You’re not welcome anyway. You don’t get to question someone’s identity. Period. No matter what else they might have done, you do not get to question their identity.
It’s a fun axiom you have there. Shame it doesn’t make any sense. But hey, if you want to validate the old conservative ‘attack helicopter’ joke, I literally can’t stop you. And you can’t question anyone who identifies as such. Funny world.
If you suddenly said you identify as a bigot, they’d change their tune real quick.
You can’t just label someone as a bigot unless they self identify as a bigot!
A .world user is leaving an instance they’re not a member of and feels the need to tell us about their sacrifice! Such bravery!
They are in .world now because they left the other instance.
deleted by creator
If only that was true. They had an account, they just never used it.
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/u/pugjesus
You can delete your comments, but they’ll still show as “deleted by creator”. Like most of PJ’s drama, it’s just bullshit to stir shit and get attention.
I posted on Blahaj previously with this account. I’m ceasing to do so.
I just tested this twice. One in a reply to myself and one in a reply to you. Both comments are deleted and are labeled as such in this post; however, they are fully removed on my profile page. Therefore, I don’t think you are correct.
It’s your client filtering them out. You’ll see the below screenshot result in a browser.
https://sh.itjust.works/u/aldente
Interesting. Though, I guess my client would filter out anything in that pugjesus link then too. I tried pasting it into my browser but it won’t show my anything without logging in. I guess it either won’t accept my sh.itjust.works credentials, or I got my password wrong too many times, because it’s giving me a “too many requests, try again later” message.
Also interesting! I didn’t have to log in on my browser, the big box is just about logging in to save them as a favorite. They have no activity history so everything is blank, thusly.
And that’s more then enough PJ for the year.
deleted by creator
You absolutely did over react.
Not at all. Like I said, considering the reactions of Blahaj users in this thread, Blahaj quite clearly is not any place I want to remain active in.
I invite you to check which instances “all those Blåhaj users” are actually from.
I invite you to check which instances “all those Blåhaj users” are actually from.
Copygirl - Blahaj
Erin - Blahaj
Catoblepas - Blahaj
Nimble - Blahaj
WeirdyTrip - Blahaj
Erotador - Blahaj
Any other stupid points you want disproven, or are we done here?
Here’s some non-Blåhaj users I’ve come across in this thread that are echoing a similar sentiment to me:
- Ma…@lemmy.world
- St…@lemmy.world
- sp…@lemmy.cafe
- Mo…@pawb.social
- Re…@lemmy.world
- yu…@pawb.social
- Al…@leminal.space
- [email protected]
- la…@lemmy.world
- [email protected]
You’ve got plenty of non-Blåhaj opinions in this thread questioning a Blåhaj admin’s decision.
Not to mention Dragon Rider isn’t even from our instance. Take it up with lemmy.nz if you want drag’s account banned.
Just a heads up: PJ there’s opinion is almost always whatever stirs up the most shit while getting them approval. I’ve literally seen them contradict their self within a few minutes in different conversations with separate people. If you look up “bad faith” on Wikipedia, a screenshot of some of their conversations here is listed.
I’m joking for the last sentence, but don’t drive yourself crazy. They are the poster child for .world’s problematic shit stirring, weird crusading behavior. Conversing with them is a waste of your time.
PJ is worse than Drag ever was.
So drag isn’t the problem, even though drag’s a “troll” whose identity does not deserve respect (as you’ve repeatedly made clear in this thread), and you’re pissed at the admin whose instance’s rules are to respect identities and pronouns even regardless of that (and then enforcing those rules), instead of the admin of the instance that’s hosting the supposed “troll” and enabling drag’s behavior across many instances…?
Tell me how that’s supposed to make sense. Or, actually, don’t. I’ve seen plenty of your kind show their true colors over the course of trying to get through to you. You’re just unable to deal with the fact that you got rightfully banned after breaking the rules, even after being told what the issue is multiple times. Grow up. Learn from your mistakes.
Don’t feel bad, PJ doesn’t have any room for anything other than worshipping Rome via memes in their brains.
Finally someone brave enough to say it!
Ah yes, they’re all crazy, where have we heard that line before? God forbid we treat people with the slightest bit of dignity.
Ah yes, they’re all crazy, where have we heard that line before? God forbid we treat
peopleDRAGONS with the slightest bit of dignity.GET IT RIGHT YOU BIGOT
Ah yes, they’re all crazy, where have we heard that line before? God forbid we treat people with the slightest bit of dignity.
Sorry, I’ve already committed thoughtcrime by questioning whether dragons are real. This is the state of Blahaj, it would seem.
You slated the thinking of an entire community centered around LGBTQ stuff, not the reality of Puff the Magic Dragon.
You slated the thinking of an entire community centered around LGBTQ stuff, not the reality of Puff the Magic Dragon.
So now we’re dealing with not only poor reading, but poor writing as well. Wonderful.
Good. Cya. Fuck yourself.
EDIT: BTW, wouldn’t surprise me if you stopped respecting trans folks too, since some of us were “mean” to you.
Whatever you have to tell yourself.
yeah, frankly anyone who says shit like this:
Sorry, I’ve already committed thoughtcrime by questioning whether dragons are real. This is the state of Blahaj, it would seem.
is already going out of their way to treat people poorly. given their past statements, it’s deffo you being the bigger person for even giving them the time of day at this point.
That’s what that post was about? The dragon fucker dude? I blocked him within a week of him existing because he was such an annoying person. I’m as much of a furry as any other socially maladjusted child raised by the internet but have some self control, dude.
Blåhaj Lemmy and its communities have certain rules regarding respecting of one’s identity and their chosen pronouns. This extends to identities and pronouns you might not agree with. Those are the rules of that space. You broke the rules. The consequences followed. This is just basic stuff.
On the other hand, if you believe certain people to be trolling with their neopronouns, then engaging with the matter in any way, is kind of “falling” for it. So, just … don’t engage? This is the internet. People get to be (more or less seriously) humanoid animals, fantasy creatures and races, and if you can’t get along with that, you can expect to get thrown out of a space that explicitly welcome anyone regardless of their identity or pronouns.
People get to be (more or less seriously) humanoid animals, fantasy creatures and races, and if you can’t get along with that, you can expect to get thrown out of a space that explicitly welcome anyone regardless of their identity or pronouns.
If I were a transgender person, I would not go within ten miles of a community that was applying the same rules to fantasy creature role playing as it was to my gender pronouns. The normie world doesn’t need to have any assistance in seeing the whole thing as made up, equivalent to wanting to be called a dolphin or a mermaid, and confusing those two very, very different concepts, or treating them as deserving of precisely the same treatment and rules, sounds very wrong to me.
100%. It is wrong to elevate roleplay (which, let’s be clear, is exactly what this is) to the same level of importance as someone’s actual gender identity.
It’s a false equivalence and does a huge disservice to trans people who are fighting for their right to even exist.
Don’t speak for trans people. Regardless of whether drag thinks drag’s an actual dragon or if it’s roleplay or just a fun neopronoun, respect people’s identities. I don’t have to get it. If someone says “I’d like to be referred to as fae,” then I’m calling fae exactly what fae wants. I have a friend that uses “love/love” as neopronouns. I don’t get it, and yes it can be confusing, but that isn’t roleplay or hurting anyone’s right to exist. This is exactly the type of infighting that conservatives try to start, and you’re either falling for it or white knighting for people that don’t need it.
Gender is made up and entirely a social construct, and some people choose to make their own rules because the rules don’t actually exist. For some reason that really pisses people off that otherwise think they’re being allies.
Yeah, this is basically like trying to reclaim the “I sexually identify as an attack helicopter” meme. I get the admins’ logic and see what they’re going for, but IMO the cost in credibility is too great.
FWIW I am trans and I 100% agree with you. Been thinking about making an account on another instance, just not sure which yet.
Regardless of what the “normie world” thinks, gender is a social construct and people can do whatever they want. That doesn’t make them a troll and doesn’t invalidate them. We can’t just throw people out for being “too different” for fear of what the “normies” think. We all were too different not that long ago. We live for who we are, not for the approval of anyone else.
In this thread:
Blahaj Community: If you’re not trans, you don’t get a say in how trans spaces are run.
You: If I were a transgender person, here’s how I think I’d feel!
But mate, you’re not trans! How great, your opinion literally doesn’t matter a half fucking iota. It’s not needed or even wanted. Cishets run the world, so fuck right off out of trans spaces with your “but if I were trans” opinions. You’re not, no one cares.
I notice that literally 0 of the several people who are lecturing me on how I don’t have a right to make this statement have engaged with the trans person who said they feel 100% the same way.
I suspect the reason is that you have no interest in giving the same level of respect you’re demanding, and mostly you want to give the lecture, and receiving one would be unacceptable, even from someone who has the same badge of “I’m allowed to give a lecture” that you’re trying to cash in.
Honestly? I think you should talk to that person. They might be able to tell you things like “Just because you’re trans doesn’t mean you automatically speak for all trans people,” or “Just because you’re trans doesn’t mean you automatically are right about everything, yes, even when trans issues are involved.” I can’t say that, because I have no authority to, it’s just offensive. With them, you could have a real interaction, and you, or they, might be able to learn something. As you rightly pointed out, the usefulness of what I have to say on it is going to be limited.
I realized a while ago that me and blahaj weren’t going to vibe, and I left them alone to do their thing and me mine. This, however, is a space that I like to call home, to some extent, talking about issues that are important to me. I’m a little bit reluctant for my opinions to get kicked out of it completely because they’ve intersected with your issues. Hopefully that seems fair.
Again: If you’re trying to have this interaction for an exchange of views between qualified people, I’m not the person to talk with. If you’re just into the idea of giving a lecture to an unqualified person, but not in that other thing, which to me seems like it would be a lot more useful… why?
deleted by creator
I’m not speaking for you. I’m speaking for me, and telling you how I see it. If you think my opinion on this may not hold much weight, which seems fair, you can scroll down a little and have a conversation with a trans person who sees it 100% the same way I do.
deleted by creator
Whoever decided it would be fun to stir the pot to get the blahaj people arguing with the rest of Lemmy is sure as hell getting their money’s worth. That’s about all I want to add, at this point.
That person is drag, of course.
I’m not in that instance, but the focus on drag’s identity and calling it absurd fantasy roleplay is just malicious. No wonder trans people need spaces with rules like that with people like y’all around.
It’s funny how you can take any statement and make it seem like they’re attacking you so you don’t have to consider what anyone says.
If I were a transgender person,
I’m trans and while I appreciate your attempt to empathize, I would like to ask you to never question a trans person’s pronouns again. When cis people start drawing lines about what’s “acceptably trans”, I get extremely uncomfortable. I don’t care how weird or crazy it seems, it’s not your place to do so.
I have had some very bad experiences with cis people trying to tell me that I’m not trans enough for them; that is why I get pissed off when it comes to cis people sticking their noses where it doesn’t belong. Hell, America is going turbo-mode on anti-trans rhetoric because a bunch of dumbass cis people think they know better than trans people.
I don’t care how strange drag’s pronouns are; it isn’t your place to decide whether or not drag is valid (drag is literally just asking you to refer to drag by a shortened version of drag’s name instead of he/she/they/xe/whatever, it’s not that hard).
If I were a transgender person
Thanks for “cisplaining” what a trans person would feel.
As a trans person, I would rather have a space where everyone’s identities aren’t questioned, than some kind of (potentially hidden) requirement to be in place that your identity has to be “real” in some way. If “normies” have trouble respecting trans people just because we also happen to respect other identities in our spaces, then shrug. If fellow trans people are uncomfortable with that, they don’t have to be part of this space, either.
In the end, you’re once again making this a much bigger deal than it has to be. Someone broke the explicitly written out rules and got bonked for it. And if you think this person is a troll, they sure are a good one with how much they’re being fed with all these posts.
Makes me wonder if the “I got banned” posts are just a continuation of the trolling to make as much drama as possible.
Move on. There’s trans people dying out there. This isn’t worth fighting over.
I care about issues of censorship and trolling, and the social contract on the network, that’s the only reason I am in this discussion. I think the whole “call me drag” thing is not worth that much attention, yes, but banning a bunch of people for saying dragons aren’t real sort of drew my attention to it.
I don’t know. It is your instance. You can do what you like with it, but keep in mind that not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend.
not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend
100%, but everyone who disobeys this rule has taken it on themselves to decide which identities are valid and which aren’t, and that’s a dangerous precedent
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule. That’s just the moderators / admins doing their job. And there’s a subtext to saying “dragons aren’t real”, which is “I don’t think I need to respect this person’s identity or pronouns”. That’s why it’s gatekeeping. You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule.
Sure it is.
By my reading of the db0 terms of service, you’ve broken them here, because you are advocating for systems of authoritarian control and against the open discussion of ideas. Would you support banning your user from db0 so we can’t have this conversation? Is that censorship?
I don’t think you should get banned, of course. Because you’re clearly talking in good faith, and I like being able to talk with people, even when I disagree with them. I just would have a wish that the network as a whole generally works like that.
You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid
But the blahaj admins do! If I showed up and said my pronouns were “thatsaspicymeatball,” they would decide that wasn’t valid. They would not ban people for not using that as my pronouns, or for discussing the issue. They’ve just decided to make their judgement call in one particular place instead of another. That’s fine, of course, but then mechanically enforcing that everyone has to act in exact accordance with where they drew the line, even though there’s room for reasonable disagreement, is what will get people talking about you on PTB.
The reality of human life is that people look at things differently sometimes. I get wanting to protect your space against ignorance or people who will make someone feel unwelcome. But this is taking it to an extreme, forcing everyone to look at things in exactly the same chosen way, which is tearing down the thing you’re trying to accomplish, I think.
Does db0 have a ToS? I can see an “Anarchist Code of Conduct”, which seems to only support my points. In addition, db0 Lemmy has its own rules that could be seen as censorship just the same. Pointing out either instance’s rules existing presumably doesn’t imply that I’m advocating for authoritarian control or against discussion of ideas.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun. drag/drag, other than being exotic, works fine in place of a pronoun. (Though one could argue it is so unique it’s more akin to a nickname, but that’s another discussion to be had.) If you instead said your pronouns were that/that, and being serious about it, it would likely be accepted. Sure, you could argue it’s a line being drawn elsewhere, but it’s not on the matter of identity.
I know numerous people that use fae/faer pronouns, some friends. Fairies aren’t real, either. Does that mean people should be allowed to make those same arguments, be allowed to openly be disrespectful and arguing against the use of those pronouns, in a space that explicitly asks you to respect them? No, of course not. Admittedly, I don’t know anyone who isn’t also okay with certain non-neopronouns being used for them as well, but if they weren’t, I personally wouldn’t think much about it and just use them.
In the code of conduct is:
Voluntary interaction, especially when it includes:
- Inclusive language and behavior,
- Welcoming attitude and approach,
- Rational debate and discussion,
- Genuine exchanges of ideas,
What is Unacceptable
- Authoritarianism, or the spread of behavior that is designed to overturn the standards described so far
You could say that’s misleadingly trimmed. I was mainly just trying to make a point: Just because something is according to the written rules doesn’t make it right. Also, you’re currently coming into a space and violating its community standards, and no one is banning you, nor should they, I think. That is one way you can wind up talking with people even if at the outset they may not agree with you on everything.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun.
You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
See how that works?
My point was that they’re exercising judgement already, as you would to my requested pronouns, because of course they are. Everyone who’s doing moderation has to exercise judgement.
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule.
…
Alright I suppose it technically is censorship. I’m not a native English speaking person. You certainly shouldn’t be surprised about a community’s rules being enforced, though. I don’t think it would be sensible to complain about “censorship” if (as an example) one is spouting bigoted nonsense at family dinner and is getting thrown out the house as a result.
I would say this is more like being told “No prejudice” at Thanksgiving Dinner, and then being thrown out for saying that mashed potatoes were a mistake of god.
It is technically prejudiced (against mashed potatoes), but it is not the assumption most people would have upon being told “No prejudice”. Likewise, being told “Don’t discriminate against anyone’s gender identity” does not, for many, call to mind “Don’t say people can’t be dragons or that dragons aren’t real, they can be dragons if they want”.
The users are taking issue with the admins falling for the troll and allowing the troll to make the space hostile. Their engagement is with the admin/mod response, not with the user.
If you genuinely believe dragons are real and they are able to type and have some understanding of the English language, go gather the data, get it peer reviewed and objectively verified, and go collect your Nobel Prize. Otherwise, if you occupy a space in which people must act as if dragons or Santa or Groot are real, that is an improv roleplay in which failure to say “Yes, and” is a bannable offense. Reality persists. Eppur si muove.
fantasy creatures
By using that adjective, you are implying there are creatures which do not exist. You’re defending the admin response by partaking in the same act which got the users banned.
Imagine dragonfucker instead said “I am Jesus Christ reborn, refer to me as the Lord.”. Obvious madness and I doubt any community would respect it. It’s the same fantasy shit just dragons are nominally aligned with furry culture
Why are you hung up on the “dragons aren’t real” thing? That was never a requirement. Some people will argue that being trans isn’t real, being plural isn’t real, being genderfluid isn’t real, being bigender or another gender entirely isn’t real. (Not that you are claiming this.) As such, the admins there simply decided that there won’t be a line drawn. Let people do what they want. Heck, you could consider it “roleplaying” if you’re more comfortable with that, or alternatively, simply don’t engage. It’s disrespectful and not to mention disruptive to make it an issue.
Why are you hung up on the “dragons aren’t real” thing? That was never a requirement.
It was never a requirement that serious expressions of identity be real?
Yes. Them’s the rules on Blåhaj Lemmy.
I mean, apparently so, but I was not operating under the assumption that “We don’t believe in gender, this is all roleplay” was the base state of the instance, and many others seem surprised by it too.
Three feet to your right is “trans women are roleplaying women”. You may not hold that view explicitly, but the rules around respecting identity in that instance exist for that reason. And that means accepting identities that are challenging, even if they are being used by shitty people.
They’re exactly the opposite of what he just said.
It’s not about the person being shitty, it’s about the identity itself being absurd and contradictory to reality.
What part of the removed comments do you think was considered gatekeeping by the admins, if not the statements that dragons aren’t real?
there won’t be a line drawn
Then any interaction in that superposition of reality and fiction is pointless. Acknowledgment of reality will be arbitrarily censored, such as above. It ceases to be roleplay and becomes a localized Ministry of Truth with the admins kowtowing to the trolls.
Let people do what they want.
People wanted to state the obvious about objective reality. Admin did not let them do that. People wanted to distinguish between reality and fiction. Admin did not let them do that.
It’s disrespectful
Disrespectful to whom? Trolls? Reality?
By questioning the person’s neopronouns, you’re gatekeeping which identities or pronouns are acceptable. Nobody cares whether dragons are real or not. Many letters of the alphabet mafia have been questioned on whether they are real or not, and even continue to be, so over here, we’re simply not doing that.
As for why you’re being disrespectful: You broke the rules of the space and now you’re making a big stink about it. Considering you’re admitting yourself you think this person is a troll, I think it’s time to admit your loss. You “fell” for them, got “tricked” into breaking a rule, and got banned as a result.
I’m not questioning the neopronouns. It’s an oversimplification to suggest that those are the singular reason people believe the account to be a troll and that is the same myopic reasoning I read from the admin. Read the troll’s directly harmful posts/comments and read between the lines on their more covert insidious posts/comments.
Nobody cares whether dragons are real or not.
People caring about an objective reality is singularly why we’re having this conversation. The users were banned for stating that they aren’t real. Are you trying to troll me too or are you just not following any of this whatsoever?
As for why you’re being disrespectful: You broke the rules of the space and now you’re making a big stink about it. Considering you’re admitted yourself you think this person is a troll, I think it’s time to admit your loss. You “fell” for them, got “tricked” into breaking a rule, and got banned as a result.
None of that applies to me apart from me stating that the user is a troll. The banned users were not tricked; the admin was tricked into enforcing flawed rules to an absurd absolute. You likewise have been tricked into defending the absurd on moral principle rather than logic.
I didn’t ask why. I asked to whom. If I disrespect a troll, then good. If I disrespect those who choose to be gullible, then they shouldn’t have chosen to be gullible.
the admin was tricked into enforcing flawed rules to an absurd absolute
This is where we disagree. As far as neopronouns go, drag/drag is still pretty tame. It doesn’t take a lot of effort to just go along with a persons preferred way of being referred to, in a space where doing so is expected. You’re not supposed to decide on your own whether it’s worth respecting depending on whether you think this person is a troll.
The reason? There’s plenty of people out there, say on the spectrum, who often have trouble with being mistaken as a troll, for lack of being able to state their opinions and thoughts properly, or any other reason. I have personal experience with one such person. And their identity deserves to respected just the same as anyone else, even if their takes and opinions you are free to argue with.
Even if you know someone’s obviously faking being trans (Josh Seiter comes to mind), it doesn’t hurt anyone to just go along with using the pronouns they asked for, while criticizing them where it actually matters.
G*mer
feral furry here. THANK YOU. Seems like a great instance from what I’ve seen.
drag is an asshole and I’m not exactly jumping in to help drag. But I do respect identities and pronouns and that’s exactly what the admins were enforcing here. You don’t have to agree.
And you may think it’s silly but people will do shit like misgender/ridicule Musk by calling him a woman’s name or using she/her when describing him because he’s transphobic. When you treat identity as something that can be taken away or called absurd and ignored, you’re perpetuating the same shit trans people like myself are trying to avoid or change.
Anyway, the rules are clearly stated and enforced around identity. YDI
Cry harder, YDI. Why does anyone care this much? If you dislike them, block them. Don’t cry publicly about how you don’t wanna take .5 seconds to type something else.
I’m gonna be honest, y’all kinda fucking dumb lmao.
Let’s say drag is a troll. If so, then drag’s wanting you to do exactly what you’re doing now. You have taken the bait, hook, line and sinker. Congrats! You’re helping drag cause problems! To avoid taking the bait, you gotta use drag’s pronouns. Do that, and there’ll be no drama for drag to stir up.
If drag isn’t a troll, then you’re just being a dick and intentionally causing drama when you could just use drag’s pronouns. By doing so, you’d make drag feel happy and accepted; which would be very progressive of you.
Soooooo… By posting this, at best you’re just feeding a troll and making other trans people question whether or not their pronouns will be respected (no, really, when cis people start drawing lines for trans people, I get extremely uncomfortable; it’s not your place to do so, fuck right off), at worst you’re being a piece of shit.
Edit: the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.
You disgust me.
THIS JUST IN: cis, agender people disgust MossyFeathers, and they are so valid in feeling this way! They need an award for not feeding a troll, because addressing the mythical-reptile-sona troll in question at all is definitely not a loosing battle.
Anyways, neopronouns are fine or whatever, and can help people. Trolling in third-person to make a mockery of the concept of neopronouns seems counter-intuitive though, unless making people who use them feel bad is the point. Ah well, I guess agender people don’t exist, and cis bad. 😑
To avoid taking the bait, you gotta use drag’s pronouns
Whatever happened to good ol block button?
That works too.
“The only way to beat trolls is to comply with their every demand and especially stay silent when they get the administrators to enforce their trolling” is an interesting take, and one about as useful to a community as “Just ignore the bullies and they’ll go away” is to a child.
you can also just block people you assume are trolls
That becomes problematic, though, when the admins back the trolls’ schtick even in discussions where the trolls in question are not involved.
A) the trolling part is getting people like you to lose their shit and question a person’s “transness”.
B) who died and made you the eternal arbiter of validity? Fuck off. I’ve had enough cis people question me and others; and now you want to tell us how to run our own spaces? Go fuck yourself.
You can run your space how you want. People complaining about the absurdity of how you do it doesn’t change that.
The discussion is about people being banned from blahaj, not about whether we want to use these particular pronouns.
I’m sure the dragon user is tickled pink about all the drama, yes, but talking about policy when people are getting banned seems like a good thing to do even that notwithstanding.
Except the discussion hinges around people trying to claim that drag’s pronouns aren’t valid. That isn’t their place to decide. That is why they got banned.
No, the discussion doesn’t. You, the admin, and several others have misinterpreted the argument. The user has been banned across communities for trolling, misgendering, encouraging suicide, bad faith accusations, moderator harassment, and advocating violence. The user has posted comments that are racist and advocating for bestiality. The user has cyberstalked and harassed a Lemmy.world mod to misgender the mod’s daughter.
The user has declared themself to not be a human. You know that to be impossible.
This isn’t about the pronouns. We are on your side. The troll is attempting to discredit you and your communities.
I want to make this clear too: I have trans people in my life. I would never interrogate them on gender or sexuality and judge whether it was “valid” in this way. I do get why the whole concept or anything adjacent to it could make people lose their shit.
That’s not what’s going on here, with this user. The way you said it is a good way. They’re not even claiming to be transgender, that I know of, and the only conceptual overlap is that of pronouns, but somehow that is enough to trigger this thing that I think is protecting them and putting them in the “ally” category.
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You’re smarter than this.
Edit: actually maybe you aren’t.
We only insist on using the correct pronouns. What’s the purpose of arguing the validity of a supposed troll’s identity when there’s plenty of actions to criticize? How often do we need to tell you that the correct response to a trolls is NOT to start misgendering them or similar, before you get it?
We only insist on using the correct pronouns.
And the idea of ‘dragonfucker’ as a gender identity, don’t forget, which is what most of the people removed were removed for.
People got banned for responding to a post by the admin herself titled “Neopronouns are not trolling”. They literally started arguing with an admin right then and there about whether some user’s identity / pronouns are valid. I don’t know what other outcome you expect.
I think the LGBT+ movement needs a reality check if they want to cut the rest of society out of that discussion.
Why would “the rest of society” need to be on a lemmy instance dedicated to being a safe space for trans people?
We don’t need to be. And as those of us in the reality-based community are apparently not welcome, many of us will be leaving.
👍
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YUP. no notes. i see no shortage of “i’m blocking you now” in comment replies to other people. it’s two easy clicks to block a single divisive user. why not drag?
because you all clearly enjoy the drama. you wanted to flex your rejection muscles in the face of clearly stated rules in a community space that was not designed for you. enjoy! yall brought this on yourselves.
You’re acting like this is a bunch of posters getting together to dogpile on poor drag instead of a bunch of posters being upset at the actions and statements of the admin.
i’m referring to the drama preceding this, as was the person i was responding to.
i personally also have qualms with the actions of the mods, but i still find it to be hella cringe how so many people saw fit to just feed the situation more and more instead of just leaving it the fuck alone as you and i have.
Ah. No comment on that. Like I said, I’ve barely even seen drag around lately, much less interacted with them.
thank you for understanding
We’re not upset at the mods. We’re upset at you.
We’re not upset at the mods. We’re upset at you.
I know reading comprehension isn’t your strong point, but the “bunch of posters” mentioned is quite clearly in the context of those objecting to the admins backing dragonfucking as an identity.
That’s heavily ironic. Considering drag has actual comments about this,
Dragon Rider, actually, not dragonfucker. And drag isn’t mad that you misremembered.
If you’re going to claim someone has bad reading comprehension maybe don’t fuck up your own first? And that’s not drag’s pronouns, that’s drag’s name. Maybe you can guess drag’s pronouns from this post? (Hint Dragon Rider has it in parenthesis next to their name)
That’s heavily ironic. Considering drag has actual comments about this,
Because drag uses first person neopronouns. Drag’s drag/dragself pronouns are person independent. They’re inflected and conjugated the same way in all grammatical persons. They represent drag’s identity as a dragon rider.
Drag rides dragons and also “rides” dragons
Drag has made REPEATED comments that ‘rider’ is to be interpreted in both senses.
Dragonfucker is also the literal fucking handle, genius. Jesus H. Christ.
And that’s not drag’s pronouns,
I’m not talking about their pronouns, though I guess that’s a distinction that requires a level of literacy several grades higher than you’re operating at; I’ve explicitly stated this multiple times in this thread.
Why. Do you. Caaaaaare?
You don’t seem to get it. You don’t question someone’s identity. Period. No ands, ifs or buts. You do not get to decide if someone’s identify is valid. You are an asshole and you are not an ally for doing it.
This is why trans people (at least the ones I know) unironically tend to avoid hanging out with cis people. Cis people think they’re entitled to telling other people how they can identify.
clearly in the context of those objecting to the admins backing dragonfucking as an identity.
Someone can call themselves the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea. That doesn’t make them a democracy. And drag literally told you what to call them. Stop grasping at new ways to be wrong. It’s getting ridiculous.
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what
I don’t give a fuck about drag really. What drag does and says is up to drag. Drag has a different and challenging identity. The instance mod was applying the rules around identity here, and it seems cis people in here are pissed because they don’t think drag’s identity is valid.
and it seems cis people in here are pissed because they don’t think drag’s identity is valid.
… yes. Being a dragon is not something you can be. Dragons do not exist, much less is there the capacity for a human being to be one.
I can’t believe that this is really a point of contention.
Being a dragon is not something you can be. Dragons do not exist, much less is there the capacity for a human being to be one.
Having different chromosomes is also not something you can do.
You might argue, that people with chromosomes different from yours exist. This is irrelevant tho, because neither can you change your chromosomes nor can you rule out someone genetically engineers a fantasy style dragon one day.
Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon
(PS: I should maybe note that I have the dragon person blocked for different reasons tho)
You do understand that pronoun use and (gender) identity aren’t necessarily linked, right?
The existence of dragons has no weight on the validity of drag’s pronouns.
Yeah, they don’t block drag because drag is their golden ticket to express their transphobic views while pretending it’s just about drag. Their real reaction to drag is:
… transphobia is when you don’t believe in dragons?
How curious.
i wish that edit was a pinned post in a lot of communities.
I came to post exactly what you said then duck out, so I’ll just add that Lemmy as a whole is fairly progressive but .world is largely centrist Americans, has multiple notable shit stirrers, and a few of them and their alts are already here agreeing with themselves.
So yeah, I’m not surprised this turned into a dumpster fire of " ‘brave’ cishets pontificating on their standards of pronoun etiquette in trans spaces".
I’m just gonna chime in with…
I don’t care for drag’s pronouns and neopronouns in general, but that doesn’t matter. You know what I haven’t seen on blahaj in my time there? Drag being nasty and trollish to anyone not using them. In the cases I’ve seen, drag handles it pretty maturely. Troll or not, people are getting upset about their idea of drag, not drag and drags behavior.
Drag is literally trolling blahaj.zone in the thread in question.
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/20091173/12155139
That post contains this image, which is drag saying people should take the attack helicopter meme serously:
Please read Ada’s comments in the thread regarding the “attack helicopter identity meme”.
I did read Ada’s comment and think Ada is a fool for encouraging the troll that goes by drag.
So you replied just to confirm that you didn’t read the story of Isabel Fall.
I understand that Isabell Fall took an internet meme and made an artistic statement uaing a fictional story which does not actually involve a real person identifying as an attack helicopter. That doesn’t make the meme itself less transphobic.
Isabel Fall is/was a trans woman who wrote a story invoking the “I sexually identify as an attack helicopter” meme / dog whistle and got attacked for it to the point of suicidal thoughts and her/them detransitioning even by her/their own peers. One of the lessons that some hope that could be learned from this is that, as Ada said it, “[it] isn’t always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them”.
Additionally, as Mossy Feathers in this thread points out: If it is a troll, you’re just feeding it. If it isn’t, you’re an ass. Oh and you’re an ass either way, because you – regardless of your infinite wisdom about what LGBTQ+ people want, how to protect them, or how to normalize our existence – have questioned someone’s identity, which is not yours to decide, and that’s against our instance’s rules.
Do not interact, or block, and nobody will mind.
Heck, some folks witnessing this mess, including me at this point, are probably quite happy about drag’s “trolling”, as it seems to honeypot those unwilling to listen to us into showing their bigoted ways. As already said: Don’t tell us how to run our communities, especially not after “one of you” just got kicked out for so blatantly breaking our rules in a post that’s literally about asking people not to.
It’s kind of amusing watching them wave around a meme they clearly don’t understand to others who also don’t understand it so they can all feel justified in their shite behavior.
PugJesus, Israel defender, now transphobe. Now I know why they bothered me. Piece of shit who hates anyone not like them.
