Remember when Angela Chao was caught locked in a submerged TESLA for hours and died ?
I wonder if Elon can account for that ? What was he doing during that “accident” ?
She was the sister-in-law of Mitch McConnell.
Imagine your car bursts into flames, and as you are going for the door, it locks up and you hear: “I’m sorry, but I can’t do that, Elon”.
answer: The target demographic of the car does not believe in privacy
They want everyone to know who they are and what they are doing at all times, and they have no sense of shame when they should.
Until someone is suspected of a crime, and subjected to a warrantless search when the feds ask Elmo for that data and receive it. Sure there’s not a lot of overlap between Tesla owners and petty crime but I’m willing to bet there IS a lot of overlap between Tesla owners and guys growing pot in their garage.
They had probable cause for a search; didn’t need a warrant.
You think tesla is awful for this (they are) because elon is the current boogeyman but most if not all modern vehicles have eulas that reserve the right to save an obnoxious amount of data including images, voice recordings, routes driven, etc. you almost always have no way to opt out despite spending tens of thousands of dollars and almost all of them have absolutely horrible data security practices
It’s a serious concern already when it’s concerning vehicle telemetry and autonomous features like adaptive cruise control and automatic braking but they pretty much rely on imagery outside of the vehicle. That can and will of course pick up images of you. However an increasing number of cars are including facial recognition inside the cockpit to identify the driver, sold as a “comfort feature” for households where multiple users drive the same vehicle. The facial recognition IDs who is driving and will automatically set the seat, climate, etc. sounds fancy right? But they overwhelmingly reserve the right to store that data, absolutely will share it with law enforcement, and will sell it likely for advertising as well
The scummier manufacturers have eulas that say something along the lines of you give tacit consent to this by simply riding in the vehicle as a passenger. So your friend buys a nice new subaru, you have a conversation with them, and that data could be harvested, sold, shared with law enforcement, etc, solely because you were stupid enough to accept a ride. You were never presented with an eula, you were never given a chance to give informed consent, but it doesn’t fucking matter to Subaru, apparently (who also does the facial recognition thing)
I recall Nissan reserving the right to sell info on your sexual orientation in one of their EULAs. Ridiculous and dystopian
EULA for what service?
Or do cars come with EULAs nowadays?
That will be very illegal in some European countries, no EULA is going to save you from the law
Hangin’ out the passenger side
Of his best friend’s ride
Tryin’ to holla at me
Get yourself a Chinese car to escape 14Eyes and embrace the CCPyware
It’s better than having your data in American servers where they can do the most damage.
Thank goodness data collection companies would never sell or share data with each other
Are you suggesting it’s better on Chinese servers? Guessing someone likes TikTok a little more than they like global stability
I don’t use TikTok. I do however see a lack of leverage a government on the other side of the world would have over me. If the US gave a shit about data security then they wouldn’t allow all its domestically sold cars to have all that user telemetry in the first place.
You’re thinking pretty small if you can’t imagine how it’s bad for a foreign government to surveil a population.
It’s being pragmatic. I don’t want any data to be transmitted to any server just as much you I assume. If that’s not gonna happen then at least China won’t be likely to share what it has with the US government and would have a smaller influence over my life compared to what the US would do.
I honestly don’t think it will matter much. I don’t think BYD, Huawei, Samsung, Kia, Honda, BMW, Motorola, or PayPal are collecting all this info about us so they can just sit on it. Now the countries those companies are based in might have some slightly different standards, but a lot of them share that data, too.
The real solution is to get decent consumer privacy laws, and I’m not sure how to get there.
And, sadly, according to Mozilla’s report Subaru isn’t even the worst! And, not in their defense, but the facial recognition stuff was a driver facing camera so it wouldn’t be facing the passenger… Always watching your friend though!
I think you have to see and accept EULA in EU for it to be respected
At least in some EU countries EULAs aren’t even valid in any way form or shape because they’re considered an unilateral attempt to force new contract terms after a sale, which is an implicit contract.
Absolutely, put a contract in front of people and say “sign here” before they pay and it’s valid (although even then, some terms are never valid since certain things can’t legally be signed away in a contract), try and force new contractual terms after a sale has been closed and it’s not at all valid.
There is a website that allows you to opt out of some of that info I believe, I can’t remember the site, but I assume an insurance company will raise your rates if you opt out?
In the system your country created rich control everything. Illusion of freedom is strong.
I think it was Carlin who had a bit about the choices at the grocery store are a distraction from the lack of choices at the voting booth. I can get 15 types of corn flakes but only 2 sides of the same party.
And there are 1-2 actual parent companies selling those corn flakes
Americans consistently sell themselves to the lowest bidder.
I’m surprised there are still buyers as we are worthless.
This reminds me of the movie upgrade :/
It’s no secret that Tesla has full access to telemetry and videos taken by Tesla cars. If you buy one, your only hope is that your footage is not interesting enough to be watched by Tesla employees. I remember reading a story about Tesla employees having internal memes made of footage that showed people captured by Tesla’s surveillance in various (mostly unflattering) situations.
All the cameras/video/telemetry etc is like HR.
It’s not to help you.
I’m feeling sick!
I have a vinyl cutter, can anybody tell my the diameters and quantities of the cameras on these cars? I’d like to start making and selling stickers to cover over them all.
Covering it wouldn’t work unless you’re trying to cover other people’s camera without their knowledge at what point you could just use spray paint. The cameras are integrated into everything from blind spot alerts and cruise control and will constantly notify the driver if it’s covered (even if it’s dirty or in pitch black and the camera thinks it’s covered).
- Place your naked kid I front of a Tesla camera
- Sue Tesla for CP
- ???
- Profit
You still need to enable sharing for this to happen, but if you do, then they can probably do anything.
Otherwise they probably need a court order to violate their policy and would be open to lawsuits if it was discovered they were looking at video feeds with the setting disabled.
EDIT: Example below (note the fine is pathetic)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/siri-civil-lawsuit-settlement-apple-iphone-eavesdropping/
Apple has agreed to pay $95 million to settle a civil lawsuit accusing the privacy-minded company of deploying its virtual assistant Siri to eavesdrop on people using its iPhone and other trendy devices.
The proposed settlement filed Tuesday in an Oakland, California, federal court would resolve a 5-year-old lawsuit revolving around allegations that Apple surreptitiously activated Siri to record conversations through iPhones and other devices equipped with the virtual assistant for more than a decade.
The alleged recordings occurred even when people didn’t seek to activate the virtual assistant with the trigger words, “Hey, Siri.” Some of the recorded conversations were then shared with advertisers in an attempt to sell their products to consumers more likely to be interested in the goods and services, the lawsuit asserted.
Edit: Further edit - I swear to god, that my partner would get advertisements for things we spoke out loud about, really odd things as well that we would NEVER have searched for. Maybe it was this.
i dont care who opens it. this is not the first story I hear about it locking upon catching fire
That’s how it keeps the fire inside
Tesla trying to apply the trolley problem to the Three Laws of Robotics.
I mean it sounds like it could be video from the charging facility but what the actual fuck they can unlock your car.
And yeah y’know what I bet they can get the video. Dear God why would anyone buy a Tesla
but what the actual fuck they can unlock your car.
Unfortunately, any car that has an ‘app’ where you can unlock your car… They can unlock your car. Whether or not you use or have the app. This includes onstar and all the rest
The capability I’m not against. It is nice that when the kid/dog locks the door or you lose your keys or whatever you don’t have to wait for someone to show up. Car keys/locks aren’t all that secure either. It should all be local PKI over bluetooth or something, but that’s another discussion, and even then an override if your phone/key gets lost/corrupted would be necessary.
The legal framework for if/when it’s fine to get a locksmith or break a window to get into a vehicle is pretty well established. Like a lot of other things the law for remote unlocking is lagging far behind tech.
It should all be local PKI over Bluetooth or something,
That would be a fun discussion. For a phone, it would be fine. For a key fob, we need something that could run on a PIC for a year without a battery change. We haven’t even tried to do anything new with PICs since 32bit microcontrollers got so cheap, but I’m not sure people would buy into something that had to charge to unlock their car.
I suppose using your phone wouldn’t be unreasonable. Maybe some of the better NFC as a backup?
Im not sure it would be to much to do. We already have Bluetooth beacons that can run for several years on a single small battery, reporting telemetry data every few seconds.
The key fob would only need to be active for a few moments a few times a day, so even if it was doing more work, it would be doing so much less frequently.
Depending on the ciphers chosen, they might be extremely energy efficient, since modern ones were often chosen as a standard with the requirement that they be able to be efficiently implemented in hardware.Since we have the advantage of being able to be relatively certain that we can bring the car and the fob together, we don’t really need full public key, just the ability to verify the key to the car. Establishing a shared secret between the two and then using simpler symmetric ciphers makes it a lot easier
Those beacons are relatively insecure. Their narrowed down to the absolute minimum power consumption and aren’t terribly concerned with bluejacking or bluesnarfing. In the case of things like tiles, your cell phone is doing all the serious work. If you started asking most of this beacons to do even a little crypto their battery life would severely plummet.
You need to verify the key to the car but you also need to make sure that a replay attack can’t happen. You’re probably still going to end up with at least rolling code + psk as the shared secret.
If we stopped here, at this point, I’m not entirely certain we would have any advantage over the current systems. Thefts by rolling code stealing are pretty rare.
Ideally, you’d have the transponder send out a hey I’m here message, you’d have the car generate a challenge, have the transponder encrypt the message and broadcast it back. The car could then compare the challenge to the crypto response and unlock.
I see plenty of SSL accelerator chips, But I don’t see anything that’s quite as simple as a pic controller barfing some data into a buffer. Most of the stuff seemed purpose built to be tied into a full-on microcontroller.
Full disclosure, I’m not at work for a few months so I am far off my crypto system design game. I’m usually pretty good though. :)
Rather than full SSL I was thinking something along the lines of an hmac. Because we can introduce the two devices to each other physically we don’t need to worry too much about a full challenge response. It should be sufficient to send an hmac signed message with an always increasing counter to prevent replays.
Even if we went with challenge response, I think you could get acceptable battery life using symmetric algorithms instead of public key.
Bluetooth security fobs already exist that do far more than would be required for a car key, and they get a few months of battery life with typical daily usage.
I think something like NFC or encrypted RFID with the reader in the car would be nice, but would rely on the car having power which is another failure point. Really the best is just to have the fallback of a physical key like a lot of non-Tesla fobs have. Tech for convenience, physical for reliability.
Mostly I think it’s crazy that Tesla’s require an internet connection to unlock “from the phone”. You can’t just connect directly. It spawned an It’s Always Sunny episode when one of the guys had his Tesla fob stop working and then parked in a parking garage and “locked himself out” because the car didn’t have signal and it took days to resolve.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but it’s definitely possible to have that functionality without the ability for the provider to unlock the car.
I mean it sounds like it could be video from the charging facility
I mean that’s what I assumed. I can’t imagine a reason one would want a camera watching you charge - like that’s an expense for little if any benefit. And if it was charged at a charging station owned by Tesla, I would be shocked if there wasn’t camera footage or if Tesla didn’t have access to it.
but what the actual fuck they can unlock your car.
I would imagine any car with keyless entry can be unlocked by the manufacturer if they have your VIN. They build the system and pair the keyfobs and locks, they’re bound to have that ability in case something happens to your keys.
I’d qualify that with a modern car with wireless connectivity, which, of course, all Teslas have.
As far as Elon himself having access, I doubt he sits there surfing camera footage like the most boring cable package in the world, but he owns the company, America’s privacy laws are sadly lacking, and he likes attention, so of course he’s going to get his name on this, whether he had a hand in it or not.
Maybe not Elon himself, but there’s been a leak some years ago from Tesla’s internal discord or something with engineers sharing photos from the cars external cameras as memes - stuff like the owners walking around in pajamas etc.
It wasn’t just outside the car, they were sharing video and pictures from inside the car too. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/04/tesla-workers-shared-images-from-car-cameras-including-scenes-of-intimacy/
Cameras at a charging station are obvious - the wire in those stations are extremely valuable. Or, vandalism.
Everybody laughed when China put cameras everywhere and gave their citizens a social score to maintain. It’s coming here. The bill of rights have no power when the ruling party chooses to ignore them.
It’s been here, trumps original supporter peter tiel created palantir back when still working at paypal
My favorite part of the Palantir story is that everyone who gets to use it, without exception, immediately uses it to monitor their coworkers, family and ex partners.
What do you think a credit score is exactly
It’s measures your compliance with the banking industry. No bearing on how well you treat others.
It is used to vet where you’re allowed to live.
And how you live. Good luck getting out of poverty with a terrible credit score, that you probably got because you were poor to begin with and living is expensive. Can’t get a loan to buy a car to drive to a better job, and can’t buy a house to build your assets and are instead forced to piss it away to a landlord in order to build their assets. That alone limits your employment opportunities and is an active drain on the amount of money you are able to save up, which compounds over time and creates societal castes of sorts - those who can accumulate capital and those who exist to serve them. And sure you can live on scraps for a decade and probably fight your way up as you crawl out of it, but it’s the fact that so many are forced to live like this that makes it crazy to believe that credit score isn’t already a social credit system.
Credit score doesn’t care if you’re buying Bad Dragon dildos, just that you pay for them.
Credit score doesn’t care if you want a lifted Cummins diesel or a Smart Fortwo, just that you pay for it.
On the flip side, social credit cares if you use your blinker or not… So, which one is worse?
They both are but let’s move past that.
That’s where it started, but a social score can ding you for not smiling while crossing the street.
Why do you think China has a social score? If you look up information on it, you find many scores / systems for different domains. Or how national policy and local policy can be different or at odds. You see China announced it in 2014 and barely put out a draft in 2023. The “trustworthy” score is tied to fraud, cheating people, selling counterfeits, etc. One local government is apparently trying to tie blood donation to financial breaks. Like giving you a tax break. Just an example of how the national policy can be interpreted and used in practice.
The idea of our governments scoring us for every little tic is scary, but the danger of overreach is different than “in China, your social score goes down for not smiling.” What exactly are people referring to?
lmao downvoted for giving details on how their social credit score works, when you’re not even saying ‘china good’.
On the third one, looking through the Cybertruck’s manual, there’s a bit about data sharing in regards to the car’s cameras to where the car can send its camera data to Tesla if it detects an accident or some kind of incident.
These cars have a few different scenarios in which they’ll just sit there and record their surroundings. As far as I can tell, it normally saves that locally, but I guess it has the ability to send it back to Tesla. All of their cars creep me out
Having security cameras at the un-manned charging stations doesn’t seem unreasonable to me? Surely this is pretty standard to prevent/catch vandalism.
The other stuff, might be a valid explanation but since it’s tesla probably not.
The question is if it was security camera footage from the facility or from the cybertruck itself. One is fine, one clearly is not.
Here’s your answer. It’s not a new thing.
it’s the first one (that i know of), however musk also said that telemetry looked normal until it burned, which is not fine in any sensible way
It is not. Unfortunately seems if you don’t like it, your only options are a decade old car or a bike.
https://electrek.co/2024/12/30/massive-data-leak-at-volkswagen-exposes-800000-ev-drivers/
That raises a new question. Did they stream the footage from the exploded cybertruck after the fact (i.e. the computer and storage were still fine), or are they endlessly streaming the footage into their own cloud storage so the explosion couldn’t have affected it?
The latter seems unlikely, because that’s a huge data storage cost. But the more I learn the more I wonder.
The in-car footage of the driver is for insurance reasons. If the Autopilot crashes, the footage will show that the driver was not paying attention or did not have the hands on the wheel, therefore it’s not teslas but the drivers fault.
The in-car footage of the driver is for
insuranceliability reasons.Ftfy
I was specifically referring to security cameras. Cameras at the un-manned charging site, recording video only in a public area where there is no expectation of privacy. Any gas station would have the same.
Now other commenters have pointed out they likely accessed the footage from the truck itself. This is a different ballpark.
The question is why does Elon have access to it?
Perhaps “Elon helped” is Musk-washing “Elon put us in contact with the folks who could get us access to those videos”. But that manbaby likes getting his clammy grabbers in the mix, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he personally demanded access and handed it over.
I mean if Tesla owns their charging stations and has their security cameras there then it makes sense they can access them, and it also seems not unusual to me that the CEO of a company can ask an employee to send them the security footage of one of their cameras?
I might have overlooked something but I’m struggling to see how this is different from what you’d expect. I get that this is c/Privacy and may not be what you’d want, but it seems in line with what you’d expect. The recordings are in a public place and presumably video only so I’m not sure what privacy is expected.
Definitely seems like a normal process would be for police to ask Tesla for the footage, but because a Cybertruck exploded and people just kinda accepted it as something they might do before finding it’s likely a car bomb, Musk probably wanted to try to get in front of it and likely contacted the police and offered their help to get answers quicker (and therefore help resolve the bad PR).
Harrupmh, yes, yes. But why in the everyloving fuck would a CEO (other than the CEO of my local sandwich shop) be involved in any of this?!
Musk is all about flexing.
I could see him wanting to be in the room when his IT/sec guys pull up the video for any kind of high profile case.
I had no idea they had those, considering there’s so many cases of vandalism that Tesla (both to cars and charging infrastructure) seemingly didn’t do anything about.
Having footage and getting the police to action that info are two very different things
