Short version: yesterday, Lemmy.world announced essentially, though they buried it under lots of distracting verbiage, that they were going to follow in the footsteps of Vichy Twitter and Meta and allow hate speech and misinformation, and probably more to the point, they intend to force recalcitrant mods to allow it regardless of their own views on the matter.
And the head mod/creator/whatever they are of unpopular opinion took exception to that and locked the community in protest.
I’m another mod of the community. Admiral didn’t let me know they were doing this.
I still 100% support their actions regardless.
So you don’t support the LW announcement?
I just want to highlight the term “Vichy Twitter” because I really like that. Thank you.
Vichy Twitter is a good one, I’m gonna write that down.
Looks like I’ve chosen a good time to join up here… I’m guessing that I’m going to be trying my 3rd instance soon.
I’m actually wondering what the draw of this place is gonna be once they decide to start behaving exactly like the rest of the platforms. It’s been quite the last 24 hours for me just trying to get set up here between web pages that don’t want to load properly, misleading servers and trying a bunch of different apps that all seem to have something either missing or broken. Like, you have to actually want to be here. I’ve put up with all of this crap so far so that I can use an alternative to Reddit, not just another Reddit with a different url.
If I wanted to hear conspiracy theories and put up with bigotry, I’d be using fucking Twitter.
The draw is supposed to end up being that you can continue to access more or less all of the same content with all of the same functionality regardless of how badly someone might screw up one or another instance.
Back when the big Reddit exodus happened, after the whole API debacle, lemmy.world ended up being far and away the most popular instance, and that hasn’t really been good for it. It’s had a bit of a “Reddit with a different URL” reek to it ever since.
But certainly not coincidentally, its popularity has also waned since, and it already has less of a share of active lemmy users than it had before, which is exactly the way the fediverse is supposed to work. And I would assume that after this last announcement, its popularity is going to take a definite hit.
I recommend trying a bunch of instances. They’re all at least subtly different, and the best way to figure out which one(s) you prefer is to just spend some time with them. Over time, you’ll just come to use one or maybe a couple more than the rest.
And I don’t even bother with any of the apps - the basic mobile version of it is actually quite good.(on Firefox at least - I can’t vouch for any other browsers).
It doesn’t help that all of the major instances are just a vehicle to throw propaganda at you.
Either way, steers me clear of reddit and if it falls to the wayside no major loss on my end. I’ll probably be better for it. Although, I have faith it will slowly grind it’s way to the top.
all of the major instances are just a vehicle to throw propaganda at you.
How are lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, feddit.org or lemmy.ca propaganda machines?
https://fedidb.org/software/lemmy/ filtered by monthly active users
You have a point. I concede even though I’m not too familiar with each one of those.
Come on over to [email protected]
Trying to decide if you’re calling me dull or just suggesting an interesting subreddit lol. It does seem like an interesting sub though, sometimes the mundane can be oddly interesting. So thank you.
In the same vibe, there is [email protected]
If you are looking for 20 non-political communities, here’s a list: https://lemmy.world/post/23952547
Very cool, thanks for pointing these out. I enjoy dishing out socio-political hot takes as much as the next person but I don’t want it to swallow up my life. You’ve been very cool and helpful to me here, including on the other instance, so once again, thank you very much.
I thought this couldn’t happen in lemmy. Oh well…
This can certainly happen on Lemmy. And you can bypass it by setting up yourself and your communities on a different instance with more reasonable rules.
Lemmy can’t change human nature. It does not restrict bad behavior. It offers alternatives. Everyone gets to choose among instances and communities. The hope is that people will shift away from the ones that become toxic when better options are always available. It tends to be a gradual process, but I think it is working.
Everyone has the right to make dumb decisions :)
Tankie mods on world are criticized for being too tankie in moderation.
Admins try to address this by forcing mods to argue instead of immediately ban if something is posted against their beliefs.
A non-tankie mod thinks it is bullshit that they have to engage in every online argument in good faith and takes their subs (I know this isn’t the official term but it communicates the idea) dark in protest.
i still use sub. i dont think ill ever stop. like how podcasts are still called podcasts and they dont even make ipods anymore.
To be honest for people who didn’t use redet a lot, ‘subs’ is very confusing because it doesn’t relate to anything in the Threadyverse.
These days when I see subs I think submissives.
These days? Definitely made sense to me even back when I redditted. I am submissive to catsbeingjerks, hmmm, and Noita.
Here’s something to blow your mind: podcasts pre-date the iPod.
The term “podcast” was coined by Ben Hammersley, a BBC journalist and The Guardian columnist, in February 2004. The word is a combination of “iPod” and “broadcast”. Hammersley first used the term in an article for The Guardian.
Like seriously what would be the connection if it wasn’t the iPod?
Yeah, “pod” cast, like podracing, you know star wars? Like your car is a pod. So like you cast it directly to your car and it’s like podracing cast pod.
Excellent summary.
While I don’t agree with the ‘tankie’ rhetoric (it’s been thrown around so much that word has no meaning here), mod abuse has definitely gotten out of control across most online communities.
It’s opening up an opportunity for communities that don’t tolerate mod abuse to flourish.
The mods only have themselves to blame. Hopefully these new communities won’t repeat the same mistakes.
It is going to be a learning experience for mods and admins on Lemmy. It took years for Reddit to cobble together a governance structure and, even then, it was really bad. I haven’t seen the devs take any stance on building tools to help and we’ve seen a lot of cases where mod abuse have been defended by admins.
This seems to be a first stab at admins taking a proactive approach to mod abuse. It is a bad policy, but at least they seem like they are trying to do something.
Agreed.
Why are right wingers the only ones who ever try to devalue the meaning of words?
If they don’t like being called tankies or nazis they are free to chage their beleifs, same as you if you feel like you are being grouped in for your beliefs.
We’re going to allow some “flat earth” comments. We’re going to force some moderators to accept some “flat earth” comments
Yup, when I think of tankies I think about the flat earth conspiracy. 🙄
How is tankism(???) Related to flat earthers?
Anti intellectualism
One Belives the shape of the earth is a lie, and all governments on earth collaborate to keep the lie alive, the other wants everyone’s needs to be met
Tankies want to put minorities in camps as a distraction from real policy while they give money to rich people.
At least that’s what all the politicians they support want.
Im sure all their supporters aren’t that malicious, but that’s who they vote for.
This shows you clearly don’t understand what was implied by what was said. “Flat earth” is a placeholder term to imply “random nonsense conspiracy theory.” Nothing more.
The idea is that instead of instant removal/ban, we are encouraged to debate and draw out through discussion, the reason why it’s bullshit.
I’ll agree that the change suggested is a bit confusing in it’s wording, but simultaneously, it was also misinterpreted by knee-jerk reactionaries to mean what they needed it to mean to result in the outrage they crave.
I agree with this, as long as lines are drawn at the kind of conspiracy theories of “homosexuality is a mental illness”, and the like. I want to make a point that this would pertain to memes as well.
This is the time to draw clear lines, because we are deciding the tone/direction of one of the largest instance in Lemmy.
With the timing being suspiciously close to Meta’s clearly bigoted “relaxation” of the mod rules, this brings with it a bad feel, but let’s remember, the fediverse is just growing and taking shape, so this was inevitable (and many of us have been watching it unfold). But we have to remember that we shape it, unlike the corporate shit we left. Make your voices heard.
Edit:
I agree with this, as long as lines are drawn at the kind of conspiracy theories of “
migrants are ruining our countryhomosexuality is a mental illness”, and the like. I want to make a point that this would pertain to memes as well.I made this change because I believe banning things that are subjective quashes debate.
Well said and agreed.
What I understand is the new rules are to force us to deal with random nonsense conspiracy theories. We are encouraged to have drawn out discussions with concern trolls who should just get banned. Do you have any idea how long a troll can draw out a discussion while still remaining polite? It’s fun for them to make us patiently explain to them that the Earth is round.
You’re not being encouraged to have drawn out discussions with trolls. WE (mods) are encouraged to not insta-ban or knee-jerk remove content just because it might lie within a grey area of what we consider trolling, like other instances do from time to time. If someone is blatantly trolling, which is usually obvious- we remove the content, but if not and it’s just an unpopular opinion/conspiracy theory, the idea is that it should remain and be debated with facts and shut down via discourse rather than a heavy hand.
Also… This is not an all encompassing be-all-end-all rule. It’s nuanced. VERY nuanced. Again, no one is forcing you to have to deal with nonsense. You also have the option to not react to people you believe is trolling in bad faith, and report them if you feel they are brewing the rules.
Hope this clears some of it up.
You also have the option to not react to people you believe is trolling in bad faith, and report them if you feel they are brewing the rules.
Leaving more power in the user’s control- you decide a user is a troll and the mods don’t see it that way, you block them and anyone who does want to see them has the option.
It sounds like it means users are forced to interact with shitty content because the mods won’t remove it.
Yeah, this proves my point.
I’m not a tankie, nor am I a right-winger.
fucking tankies are here to ruin yet another alternative social network. Every. Single. Time. Be it alt-right nuts or alt-left ruining the party for everyone.
Not that it matters, the whole .world instance is a toxic disinformation hub that should have been defederated long ago by every sane instance, but from what I’ve read it wasn’t tankies, in this case, it was vegan fundamentalists going on a ban spree (it’s far from the first time their .world community causes drama).
Why are you commenting so much on .world if you hate it this much?
I don’t have a .world account. I’m commenting on lemmynsfw, which hasn’t defederated .world yet, so I got this question on my feed and my replies are getting sent back to .world through federation.
Ya bud, I understand federation. I’m just saying, you’ve commented about how much you hate .world in this thread six times, which is a lot of times, and 99% of your interactions are on .world. It’s incredibly easy to block an instance and never see it again.
Blocking would only help me. Defederation helps everyone.
Imagine, letting people decide for themselves… 😱
People are free to make an account on .world of they want to.
But that doesn’t mean that cancers like .world or .ml shouldn’t be excised before they kill the rest of the fediverse. Disinformation should never be tolerated.
Wait, it was about the VEGANS again?!
Vegan fundamentalists.
Veganism is a perfectly cromulent diet choice as long as you take care to supplement any vitamins and aminoacids your diet may lack and you don’t force it on growing children or obligate carnivore pets.
The problem with the mods in .world’s vegan community, is that they don’t treat it as a personal diet choice, but as a cult. And their view of “heretics” seems directly inspired by Warhammer 40,000.
You have to allow a little raw chicken in the mayo now.
So now people are to be allowed to sealion and troll and JAQ off in your community, so long as they do it respectfully.
Or else.
Imagine running, say, a community for vulnerable trans kids, and being forced to allow a constant influx of ‘helpful suggestions’, just so long as they’re phrased in pretty language.
Yikes
Anyone who’s seen what happens when mods legitimize trolls knows it kills communities. I wish i could have stayed on blahaj but it’s just as toxic as reddit lgbtq spaces now…
It is? What happened to blahaj?
There was a person insisting on using the neopronouns ‘dragon fucker’ and the mods decided to honor that.
No I am not making this up.
This is not true, the neopronoun was ‘drag’. Sorry you’re so caught up on what people want to be called. 🤷
And drag was shorthand for?
I was just correcting your misrepresentation of drag’s neopronoun. Asking someone to call you dragon fucker every time they referred to you would not be shorthand. Plus, drag’s username was dragon rider where I’ve seen drag.
Imagine running, say, a community for vulnerable trans kids, and being forced to allow a constant influx of ‘helpful suggestions’, just so long as they’re phrased in pretty language.
What will happen is Trans kids will go over to one of the trans-friendly instances, and the .world will be where the trans defenders go to debate chuds.
https://lemmy.world/post/24135976
So they’re trying cut back on echo chambers and power tripping mods. I like this, but I wonder how this going to play out.
We’re going to allow some “flat earth” comments. We’re going to force some moderators to accept some “flat earth” comments
You… like this? Glad I’m not a mod, this is how places like Reddit became what they are today. Opinions should be allowed, but admins should be able to moderate blatant falsehoods.
We’ve already run into problems with that where mods banned people talking about Israeli war crimes as “misinformation”. Despite it being headline news.
So that’s obviously not a great system.
Did you document this on [email protected] ?
Yeah I’m pretty sure I remember it getting called out there.
Define “blatant falsehood”. See where the problem starts?
Their own example of a “differing opinion” to be discussed (i.e., promoted) instead of banned is flat earth lunacy.
The policy is intended to promote disinformation and hate speech, as was that bot they shoved on all their communities a while ago.
.world is and has always been a disinformation hub that should have been defederated by every sane instance from the get go.
Essentially, the policy is to distance .world from other instances that have a more…. Locked down/strict approach. Or in other words, the purpose of the change is to not have .world’s moderation resemble the oppressive methods of moderation of some of the other popular instances.
Its intention is to stop heavy-handed moderation, and instead create discussion and debate. To not have mods knee-jerk remove/ban content that could have been left to remain and debated. The problem is, it was confusing in its delivery.
But don’t let this get in the way of whatever grudge you’re holding.
The purpose is, as .world’s has always been (we all remember the infamous bot), to spread disinformation, though this policy is clearly an escalation in that regard, forcing mods to actively promote it even if they don’t want to.
At this point no amount of vacuous sophisms can hide that.
We see what we want to see, don’t we?
No, I’d pretty much rather not see it, but it is what it is.
Reddit is a living emblem of the problem this is trying to solve so I have no idea what you mean.
Mods can’t be trusted to enforce the truth. It’s far too complicated and they invariably end up enforcing their own distorted view of the world instead.
Here’s the thing - who cares if someone wants to post about flat earth theories? If people like it, it will be upvoted, and if they don’t, it will be downvoted. Why remove it? That’s the point - let the users decide, not the mods. Power to the people, the mods just step in when they post 10 times in an hour about flat earth theories.
Unfortunately, you’ll have to switch to subscriptions when you sort by new.
You… like this?
Yeah. You know the saying, “Sunlight is the best disinfectant.”.
That saying is total bullshit. I’ve seen people say it for years, only to one day turn coats and reveal that they supported the falsehoods all along.
Sunlight helps scum find other scum.
Did sunlight stop the Nazi problem on Twitter?
I don’t, but I also moved all the communities I mod off LW
Yeah. I’d rather have people rely on citations and inquisition than trusting mods to keep misinformation at bay.
Policy sentiments aside, wow that post is so up it’s own ass. There was definitely a more concise way to communicate the change.
So they’re trying cut back on echo chambers and power tripping mods.
No they’re not. They’re trying to promote disinformation and hate speech, because they’re trying to emulate Musk, Zuckerberg, and spez, as they’ve always done.
Hopefully this’ll be the drop that makes the glass overflow and will get .world finally defederated by saner instances.
I’m not an expert in political philosophy by any measure, but I kind of feel like lemmy.world is a small case study in the pros and cons of realpolitik.
Mostly the cons.
.world continually making dumb changes
Seems like they locked the community in protest of recent .world TOS changes. Although I think a much better protest would be to simply refuse to enforce the changes they felt are unsatisfactory.
…or just migrate the community to another instance? Like why are we in the fediverse? Have people forgotten that if you don’t like a instance, you can just move to another one?
Migration as a first choice is rash.
I gotta rash, man.
It’s really not. The whole purpose of federation is that you can just go to whatever instance you like best.
Migration as a sub is rash since it involves moving a community of people.
But it doesn’t? I moved from .world to .ml last year but I can still go to .world communities to argue with people, just like before. Migration actually should be the first choice.
This isn’t regarding a user, but where a community is being hosted.
Are all major community members in Lemmys that are federated to where the community is being moved?
What happens to the community’s data, since it won’t get carried over?
What prevents this issue from happening again in a new instance?
For a platform that is meant to communicate, it seems funny that a lot of people’s gut reactions to coordination problems is to cut all ties and leave.
Are all major community members in Lemmys that are federated to where the community is being moved?
Depends on where they move, doesn’t it? Obviously if a community moves to hexbear then .world users won’t be able to access it (and that’s .world’s fault). But there’s no need to do that? They can just move to a federated instance and stay connected.
What happens to the community’s data, since it won’t get carried over?
Does anything have to happen to that data? Why not just leave it behind as a record? I guess they could go through the effort of using a bot to repost everything in the new community if they wanted to preserve everything and not leave it on the old instance.
What prevents this issue from happening again in a new instance?
Pick a good instance and it won’t happen.
.world was always shit, anyone could have seen this coming. It’s always just been a reddit instance.
For a platform that is meant to communicate, it seems funny that a lot of people’s gut reactions to coordination problems is to cut all ties and leave.
Again, the whole point of federation is that we don’t cut all ties. It’s not like moving communities requires defederating from .world
Not when it’s from a toxic instance like .world.
From the announcement in question:
Some communities will receive an immediate notice with a link to this new policy. The most egregious communities will comply, or their moderators will be removed from those communities.
Nothing like a good power trip from the admins. Even if mods are power tripping people can make a new community. This was a bad response by admins, they bowed to only the most vocal minority. Vast majority of people have been fine with the moderation on .world. only classy thing to do is to take it back and play it off like it was a trial run that didn’t work out
Mods are sad that this isn’t reddit where their communities are their own little fiefdom
As I understand, It was a move intended to inspire discussion rather than having overreaching moderators knee-jerk remove posts/comments. It just wasn’t worded properly.
Yeah. Like, I do understand 100% that if someone says something in good faith, even if it’s disagreeable or stupid, and not harmful, is there really a point in removing it? Although , even then, I got banned from politicalhumor for “racism” for posting the following meme:
It was in a comment section and my joke was that Joe Biden legalised abortion. However they must have thought that I was posting it unrionically and was seriously claiming that Obama was a Muslim based on him being black, even though that it should be obvious that even the creator of the meme was parodying Facebook grandmothers
I’m pretty sure you should have been allowed an appeal. I believe it’s a “bylaw” of lemmy. Next time you feel you’ve had a comment unfairly removed or you’ve been banned for something you feel wasn’t worthy of a ban, reach out to a moderator of that community and just ask.
We’re not Reddit. Sometimes, misunderstandings happen.
Well, time to make my alt community account my primary one. See y’all on the other side!
I make them perna ban me first. Fuck them.
But yeah. Gtfo, and be carful, if the world is flat that means it has an edge.
I have no idea, what is it?
They locked the community in protest of . world’s new pro-disinformation and pro-hate speech policies.
Wtf dot world?
