- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
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When did 'Murica, land of the free, abandon freedom for madness?
Oh, I got this one! Pick me, pick me!
Mexico, Samoa, Hawaii, Philippeans, Columbia, Hondurus, Cuba, Nicaragua, Mexico (again), Haiti, Dominican Republic, Russia, Greece, Costa Rica, Albania, Syria, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Syria (again), Indonesia, Iraq, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Cuba (again), Congo, Dominican Republic (again), Iraq (again), Guyana, Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, Angola, East Timor, Argentina, Afghanistan, Nicaragua (again), Granada, Panama, the USSR, Iraq (again again), Haiti (again), Yugoslavia, Afghanistan (again), Venezuela, Iraq (again again again), Haiti (again again), Palestine (continuously), Syria (again again), Libya, Bolivia (again), Venezuela (again)
Can’t help but to sing along
I gotta organize them to make them more singable sometime.
It was right around the time he got shot and made that fake fist pump. Also when he started considering that scum bag - obama a friend.
Murica, land of the free, was founded by people who owned slaves. While speaking about the evils of slavery.
So the madness was always there.
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The US is just Helldivers 2 in real life. A democracy managed by Elon Musk and people ready to die for „liberty“, „prosperity“ and „freedom“.
Don’t make me feel bad about my beloved Helldivers!
Sorry to say most people don’t get it or starship troopers.
Don’t feel bad. It’s not the devs fault that we live in a strange timeline
You do understand that Helldivers is a satire of America? This didn’t change in 2024. The Helldivers yell about freedom and democracy while having zero meaningful freedom or political influence, and invading other places to steal their oil or murder them for being communists because that is what Americans do.
We live in a country that was stolen then we stole some other people so they could do the work for us. Then conquering half a continent wasn’t good enough for us, so we went around ruining other places if they didn’t want to give us all their stuff. If people think we only recently crossed a line, I’d generously hope they were just ignorant because the alternative is horrific. Every piece of the past is a step that got us to where we are.
I’m starting to think the same thing, if you go over US foreign policy since WW2 it is almost like the mask is just coming off entirely now.
America did a lot of bad stuff, to put it mildly. This is definitely something else though.
I agree, that’s what I mean by it just going mask off, there’s no pretending about a probable cause of higher moral path etc this time.
What? You’re welcome for all that world peace and prosperity since ww2. It is about time Europe started to share this burden.
It’s pretty disingenuous to act like the US took sole credit, or that Europe didn’t share in the burden of WW2.
Plus re:world peace - the USA has been involved in 32 wars since WW2 ended, none of them on American soil.
Check the numbers. Those are vastly tiny compared to ww1 and ww2. Small policing actions are necessary to keep dictators in line.
There wouldn’t be a ww2 without Europe. Their faulty treaties and failure to stop dictators led to the conflict. America cleaned it up.
Does Vietnam fall under “small policing actions that are necessary to keep dictators in line?”
Yes. Extremely low casualty rate compared to ww2.
K bud.
Have you seen the numbers or are you throwing an opinion out there?
oh yes, the small policing action known as The Cold War that almost ended the human civilization
followed right up with the friendly local copper checking in on Iraq and Afghanistan as a social call
When did the United states and the Soviet union fight?
Sorry to burst that bubble, but just because you were never taught about the things they’re talking about doesn’t mean they didn’t happen.
It just means your education system, like most, is run by nationalists that care more aboutv using mythology to make more nationalists than about conveying historical fact.
Lol national mythology
Path before Regan/Gorbachev prevented war in Europe. Korea and Vietnam were clear US instigations, as was Afghanistan rebel support as first proxy war on Russia/Afghan communist government, with dubious peace objectives. I will give you shared prosperity of west as US needed to support EU as an “example of benefit of US friendship”. And ICBM treaties, Cuba missile crisis, I also grant you as peace.
After USSR breakup, US military complex needed new funding excuses. Destabilizing eastern Europe to foment hatred against Russia and NATO expansion started early. Middle east/oil conquests traded minimal prosperity for high debt loads and stronger police state. Subversion of CIS states of Ukraine and Georgia started early, and precisely as a buildup for NATO war on Russia, but also direct diminishment of Europe in subservience to US. New colonization of Sweden and Finland means their prosperity and peace is diminished.
Europe started to share this burden.
Europe instead needs stronger alliances with nations on their continent. That means not being vassals to US and their subversion of democracy, and definitely not subsidizing their overpriced weapons industries. There is an ocean protecting Europe from US too. “Values based alliances” are always BS. Humanism certainly has “best practice values”, but one of them is to let others have the freedom to adopt their own values without violently oppressing/objecting to them.
There has been no large state on state conflict since ww2. Birthrates are up. Poverty is down. Global trade has been better than ever.
Every conflict has been small and controlled. Nothing on the scale of ww2. Additionally, keeping energy prices stable saves lives. Everytime energy prices go up, people die.
America has had the burden of keeping bad faith actors in check. Europe and the rest of the world has benefited for 80 years. It’s about time the step up when bad faith dictatorships get frisky.
By every objective measure, humanity has prospered under americna hegemony. Try not to be blinded by your anti american hate.
All good points. Before 2001, oil prices were around $10/barrel. The middle east wars were designed to pump them up.
Or China and Indias rapid growth economies did that but you do you.
PNAC path for 7 middle east wars, took production out of Iraq and Iran as the big ones. Big price boost. It is only recently that Iran sanctions have been ignored by Asia.
Opec held back production to drive the price to 100 a barrel. American fracking broke OPEC and forced prices down to 30 a barrel. It is slowly climbed with inflation. Even so, america kept the straits open for this oil to be shipped.
Shouldn’t you wait until there is an agreed upon deal before you criticize the hypothetical agreement that lives in your imagination?
It’s not analogy, it’s allegory. It applies too well to the world.
I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
True. But in 21st century colloquial speech, a linguist would have to admit that, descriptively, “widely applicable” and “allegorical” are nearly synonymous. But I’m also a fan of the quote, history does not often repeat itself - but it rhymes. So whether it’s fictional history or rough allegory, the end result is the same.
in 21st century colloquial speech, a linguist would have to admit that, descriptively, “widely applicable” and “allegorical” are nearly synonymous
Ha. You’re the second person to have suggested that, so maybe there is something to it. But to be honest I’m not sure I agree. I don’t think I’d ever use the term allegory without authorial intent. (But to save repeating myself, I’ll just direct you to my reply to @[email protected].)
Or, at the very least, even if you are inclined to disregard authorial intent, there’s still a subtle difference between allegory and applicability in that allegory requires an almost direct one-to-one relationship between the text and various elements of the real world, while applicability can be much more subtle or broad strokes. Basically, applicability is a broader term than allegory, a superset.
Dear sir, may I refer you to my previous rebuttal to the esteemed colleague @[email protected]
I can’t xD
The fuck you on about, mate? You got a problem with allegories?
I dunno if you’re just memeing or if you genuinely don’t know.
In case it’s the latter…I posted a fairly famous quote from the author responsible for the text this community is based on.
I really didn’t know, so thanks for explaining it.
Fun fact: allegory had a different meaning back when Tolkien lived. Language evolved. Tolkien never mentioned hating what allegory now means - an interpretation of a story by the audience as representative of another issue. In fact, he said he was a fan of that sort of thing in your quote.
I’m not sure that I agree it has changed. To me, an allegory implies authorial intent. Some classic examples being Tolkien’s friend Lewis whose Narnia novels were an allegory for Christianity, George Orwell’s Animal Farm, an allegory for early Communist USSR, or The Crucible by Arthur Miller, an allegory for America’s red scare.
If it isn’t done with authorial intent, it’s still absolutely possible to be a valid reading of the text that there are parallels, but IMO that’s no longer an allegory.
The Matrix is a trans allegory, despite the fact that neither of the Wachowskis knew they were trans at that time. They put their feelings of gender confusion, dysphoria, and euphoria into the movie, despite not understanding those feelings. And it made it a masterpiece. That’s proof allegory doesn’t require intent.
Downvoted for disliking allegory.
It’s a Tolkien quote about his buddy CS Lewis’s Narnia and he’s up his own ass in it.
You downvoting granda Tolkien?
I’ll do it again
Murica was never free, has always been madness
We were freed from England. Slaves were freed from slavery. But, no, we were never freed from plutocracy. We’ve made attempts, though. There will always be someone trying to opress. There will always be a culture of servitude because in service of others power is concentrated.
Although, America has continued to fight for its freedom. Sometimes winning. Sometimes losing. As a result Americans have experienced more freedom than those who came before.
Although, America has continued to fight for its freedom. Sometimes winning. Sometimes losing. As a result Americans have experienced more freedom than those who came before.
Most brainwashed people on earth.
Americans have experienced more freedom than those who came before.
[citation needed]
I dunno read a book.
What books are you reading that you think 1776 was about anyone’s freedom except for the bourgeoisie’s freedom to exploit the working class and genocide the natives?
That’s not to say the people who did the fighting and dying didn’t think they were fighting for freedom, just that they were surprised when they were disenfranchised by property requirements and laws that favored the big bourgeoisie over themselves. You may remember Shays Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion?
If you’re looking for further reading, The Counter Revolution of 1776 is a good one.
You’re proving my point by 1856 all states had removed the property ownership requirement for whites.
Please, just the bare minium reading comprehension next time you try to engage someone.
by 1856 all states had removed the property ownership requirement for whites.
The purpose of that was to marginalize the freed slaves and keep the working class divided. The removal of the requirement wasn’t because a faction in power decided it would be nice and create a freer society, but because it gave them further power.
To quote LBJ a century later: “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
Please, just the bare minium reading comprehension next time you try to engage someone.
Don’t condescend when you haven’t read shit on a subject.
Do I need to walk you through every event that happened post 1856? Women sufferage, civil rights, this is my entire contention you clod. Just go away. You are not engaging in good faith.
Americans have experienced more freedom than those who came before.
How are Americans more free than the native people that were on the continent before Europeans arrived?
Answer: They aren’t
Ok.
You really won the morality dick measuring contest we weren’t having.
I said America was never free and you said
Americans have experienced more freedom than those who came before.
Why are your acting like you weren’t clearly disagreeing with me?
Slavery in the British Empire ended a generation before slavery ended in the US.
Sorry, but USA was founded on hypocrisy, pretty words about freedom and equality set down on paper by slave masters.
Everyone else in the world knows you get freedom by voting for it in election after election. Only Americans believe that freedom is granted by deified slave masters.
Sorry, was your argument the British empire is more free than America?
Edit: also did you just call the gibberish that comes out my mouth flowery?
Seek help.
All states are tyranny, agreed.
True but if you don’t have an army you’ll quickly become a slave to others who do have an army
Legend says it started with Trump getting a dirty sanchez in a Moscow brothel.
I was there the day the strength of men failed.
Europe after stopping fighting the most brutal and effective wars for centuries:
You’re sure you want us back? We’ll be united this time too.
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Are you under the impression that Europe is somehow inoculated against imperialism? It’s been fine going along with the US right up to this point, and has sins all its own.
Aye
Yea? Not only has no eu country made no attempt to acquire new colonies in the last hundred or so years, they actively deloconized!
In opposition to the US, that demands mineral rights among others in Ukraine! That keeps Guam uprepresented for another example, or for a third example their threats of expansion to greenland and canada! When was the last time any eu countries did anything like that?
Most of Europe is actively helping Israel exterminate the Palestinians in an act of brutal colonialism.
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🤡
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Eh, colonialism has ended less than it has evolved.
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Most US imperialist actions post-WWII haven’t been for territory. The modern version is more economic and abstract. It’s why Steven Pinker could write a whole book on why violence has declined in the world, be technically correct for the most part, but completely misses how the situation has transformed.
And yes, the EU is very guilty of it all, too. You can claim the US is worse, and certainly a revival of territorial imperialism is a regression to a horrible history, but this wholesale wiping away of EU sins is completely unjustified.
Aside from me giving literally gave 3 examples of the US holding/pursuing territorial expansion while not giving/not planning to give representation(guam, canada, greenland)… Do you think that makes it good? Should we start praising Trump for only wanting the mineral rights of Ukraine?
Unlike you Americans, we actually do recognize our actions against our past colonies as crimes against humanity! But aside from stopping and holding bilateral development programs for them, da fuck are we supposed to do?
Unlike you Americans, we actually do recognize our actions against our past colonies as crimes against humanity!
You’re still keeping all of the wealth though, naturally, and maintaining the system of unequal exchange that lets you increase that wealth.
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Unlike you Americans, we actually do recognize our actions against our past colonies as crimes against humanity!
lmao 14 countries are forced to use France’s central bank. Do you think Africa sells you labor and resources for pennies instead of developing their means of production because they just love stripping their country of resources for you?
You should kind of read your links, you know? Doesn’t write a singular word ab how these 14 countries were aggressively forced to use the stable cfc instead of the hyper-inflating rand
I don’t see the link or the example where their resources are unjusty pilfered! I too can make definitive statements you know? American chedar is scientifically the grossest cheese!
I explicitly said it’s a return to a horrible history. If you’re not going to take arguments that are given, then I think we’re done here.
When? When did you say “…return to the past…”? You wobbled on about that us (complete fucking nonsense mind you, the cold war was a thing) and you vaguely stated that it did imperialism without stating a time or a specific event… So maybe you can try that? What country is doing what?
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Queue historical materialism
?
It’s a theory in international relations which argues that colonialism is all present today and excercised by mainly the West, but not in the form of guns and slavery but via the economical system and centre vs periphery
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Potentially yes, but europe was so nice all in peace (compared to before).
Potentially? So a back when the populus couldn’t read then crimes against humanity was bad! But now, that the population can read now crimes against humanity are good? Makes a lot of sense
I answered your question about us imperialism. Should we too gang up? Probably yes. Will it only be giid? Probably no should we counter russia? Yes.
To be fair, your post is hard to read/understand.
Maybe you should ask if you are not clear ab someone else’s post?
Lets take another run at it! You complain about our, European, crimes against humanity! The ones that we stopped doing and recognize them to be warcrimes ag humanity! Is your issue with that that we stopped doing them unlike you americans?
I was just jesting that we had the biggest most fearsomes armys ever, for good (fighting nazis) and bad (being nazis? Being imperialists, etc.) but we stopped “all that” and now putin pokes us enough to go back to our war stance (but this time we are united).
I don’t know what I said that made you think I’m pro imperialism or that I even spoke about crimes against humanity (it do happens europeans do them sometimes and that atrocious of course, but today it’s russia who do them every day, all day long).
Hope that clears it up!
Slavery and colonization is not “war”.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
I will draw you, Donald, as poison is drawn from a wound.
Europe must join together send to shit USA and go full Gandalf the White
May I suggest to evaluate the idea to side with Russia and go full homeland vs newland. I mean EU + Russia sided with China could smash the old USA. If USA leaves NATO the rest of NATO could integrate Russia. Top notch superpower, with a little topping of democracy. TL DR What if EU + RU Vs USA ?
I mean it’s easier for logistics once you build proper infrastructure. Better than an ocean
But don’t mind this comment nor take it seriously, what I want is no more wars.
Peace
For you ukraine doesn’t matter?
This whole template implies that Russia is Sauron. I wouldnt side with it.
Of course It matters, as anyone. I was thinking if USA leave NATO what if we side with Russia, we as EU Ukraine included. But I’m not thinking of military strategy but an hypothetical scenario that would result as a no death stability of the new biggest, triumvirate between China Europe and Russia. Hopefully thinking that those countries are more inclined to have more civilized manners and thus permeable to democratic values.
“What if we abandon siding with one authoritarian and side with a different authoritarian” is not the good argument you seem to think it is.
Recommendation is mostly (should be) about not taking too strong a side in either direction.
Prior to 2014 coup, Ukraine (under Yanukovych) was at peace with good relations with Russia, and overtures with Europe (Sabotaged by US controlled IMF). Russia’s demand of denazification of Ukraine is a genuine path for peace. Zelensky’s election platform was denazification and peace with Minsk accord follow through. A ceasefire with EU troops helping Banderites continue their terrorism of 2014 to 2022 of liberated Ukrainian regions is definitely not a path for peace.
Smart EU policy would be to just ask Russia to cut back on military production in order to not be as scary.
The only countries that did well economically under Ukraine war were those who kept open geopolitical relationships. Subservience to US never pays. It’s not a matter of needing war against US, it is a matter of ignoring their coercive economic (and geopolitical adoption of US enemies as your own) power. Once you are free of US propaganda, you can have a free democracy. Musk actually helped liberate world from US by killing USAID. You just need to wake up now.
we side with Russia, we as EU Ukraine included
Become part of Russia’s empire is the only way this works.
You are right and I am wishing for a third way, as equals as in EU. With Russia in EU the congress gonna be so much fun. They already are with one foot (Hungary), Serbia also would be dragged in ending the balcanization by making really peaceful. EU would have access to raw materials. Russia to cutting edge theory and tech. Lesser partner would be china!
Russia needs to fundamentally change for that to happen. Maybe even disintegrate a lose much of their central and eastern asian territory. Russia is too big to be easily integrated into europe.
Yes, I agree but maybe some day Putin will leave the charge either voluntarily or by dying. What will happen then? Elections? Succession?
More importantly, why is EU Gandalf supporting so many pro-Sauron leaders when they have USA Saruman’s fall as a cautionary tale right in front of them?
America may be able to join Russia, but ultimately the war in Ukraine is a war on Europe so how tf does Europe “join” Russia (besides handing over the entire territory)?
I think that’s the point, that’s what Saruman here is advising, just like some European politics, unfortunately - to join Russia willingly, to become what Belarus is, a vasal state.
How about Europe joins the war?
no thank you
