Correct.
Palestine should be allowed to exist without needing a Star Wars level rebel terrorist group to rage against Israel’s cruelty.
Fuck Hamas, but they only exist because of Israel.
Now the only question is if we can get that genie back in the bottle if we correct our mistake, stop funding Israel, and let them fade away into dust.
Yes, very much yes. Hamas has signed permanent ceasefires before and followed them until it became clear Israel had no intention of upholding its end of the deal. Basically Hamas is currently rebelling against the blockade. Lift that and the whole Gaza side ends. Of course they’ll just ramp up their activities in the West Bank instead because those people are also being genocided, so something needs to be done there too.
The genie is basically hitting you and begging to be put back in the bottle.
Rebelling against a blockade by slaughtering civilians is still awful and terribly misguided though. It’s hard to see how someone who exclusively wants to fight for freedom and fair conditions would ever consider that an acceptable idea.
Rebelling against a blockade by slaughtering civilians is still awful abd terribly misguided though.
Yeah, true enough, but oppression breeds extremism and Gazans (and West Bankers) have seen a lot of oppression. It’s not necessarily rational, but yeah, when your already horrible life is destroyed because an Israeli airstrike bombed your house and killed your family, most people will be out for blood. If Palestinians get freedom, Hamas and similar organizations will probably be reduced to fringe organizations instead of resistance movements with large amounts of public support. We’ve seen it in the Troubles.
And the occupation only happened because of several wars of aggression against Israel.
And? Collective punishment is a warcrime.
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new ‘policy document’ accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon’s peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu’s repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump’s imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers
the Palestiniansthe governing body of palestinians offered to Israel -None
You should check before you copy paste, so lemme just:
Everything before 1949: The idea that Israel had a right to Palestinian land is itself wrong. A two-state solution is the most realistic solution now, but before the war it should’ve been one state encompassing all of Palestine. A two-state solution necessarily meant that a number of Palestinians would be condemned to expulsion or a life of apartheid (which both happened and are happening in post-war Israel). And anyway this was more than 70 years ago; almost nobody who remembers that is alive today.
The UN resolutions are things Israel objects to. How do these even belong on a list of peace offers from Israel when Israel actively rejects them (particularly the 1949, since it calls for the right of return of Palestinian refugees).
The 1978 offer from Sadat was Yasser Arafat’s greatest mistake and part of what led Palestine to the current situation, no argument there, but calling it an Israeli offer is disingenuous at best and misinformation at worst.
1994: Bruh negotiations were progressing until Rabin got fucking assassinated by a Zionist terrorist, at a time where the Israeli right was actively calling for his assassination. How you (or well, the guy who wrote this) managed to blame this on Palestine is beyond me.
2000 and 2001 (they’re the same thing): The then-Israeli foreign affairs minister stated he wouldn’t have accepted the offer if he were in Arafat’s place. It was that bad.
The Olmert offer was mostly behind closed doors so nobody actually knows what was going on (both sides blame each others for not following up on negotiations), but from what we do know the offer included keeping an unacceptably large part of the West Bank (about 10% by the Palestinian calculation).
Are you seriously buying Netenyahu wanting peace? The guy who supports settlements and goes on and on about how a Palestinian state must not be allowed to exist? LMFAO. Give me an example of one of those offers, if you will.
2014: The American envoy stated that the blame for the failure of the negotiations (not an offer, since Israel didn’t actually offer anything) lied squarely on Israel, and specifically Netenyahu. That’s how uncooperative Israel was.
And about Palestinian offers: How do you expect Palestinians to offer peace? “We want peace with these terms” “No”. It’s Israel who holds all the power; they’re the only ones who can offer peace.
So with that, if anyone was actually buying this shit, this is why this is complete and utter nonsense.
Did you just try to disprove everything shirtly after and before ww2 as “well uhm the land isnt theirs tho”?
Did you fail highschool?
It makes sense but it is also not just impossible but begging for a world power to step in and impose themselves. How would an union already incapable of helping Ukraine and dealing with internal turmoil in each of their countries suddenly project itself between two groups that want to kill each other and think they will be successful there. Hell, have you even thought about how Turkey and Hungary would react and try to exploit their own influence over such a protectorate?
The UK should be the protectorate there. They’ve got experience in the region. (/s)
Edit: added /s before someone takes it serious.
Residents of Blackpool and Luton would welcome this as it would give them a new opportunity to live somewhere better.
Last time we were in charge we caused the current situation
I see your /s
Probably a good point, before someone takes it serious. Then again, the German word would be “ausbaden” for it.
Yep, came here to comment on the fact that we don’t care what the EU thinks, we need a word from the experts!!!
Why is it impossible? The simplest possible way would be to hold new elections in Gaza for which Hamas do not run.
It would probably lead to a group identical to Hamas being elected, but it would be neither Israel nor Hamas.
What may be impossible is a government that’s aligned with western governments, but that’s not what is being asked for.
I thought I spent most of my comment explaining why. I think your last sentence illustrates it best - do you think western governments like the US and anyone not Von der Leyen would be ok with it?
project itself between two groups that want to kill each other and think they will be successful there.
Because Israel wouldn’t attack them and the other group won’t have many weapons left when the IDF is finished with them. Obviously it won’t be the EU alone as it would be seen as too one sided (well Ireland maybe not), but let’s not forget that we’re talking about a 360km² area with less than 2 million people here. This isn’t a huge landlocked mountain country like Afghanistan, it’s a tiny strip of desert with a modern harbor in walking distance. For reference you can look at the manpower KFOR and similar missions have.
It’s not going to be easy to get political approval but a UN mission would almost certainly be able to keep the peace there.
It’s better than just hoping Israel works it out, but it’s still unworkable. Israel won’t accept it. Hamas won’t accept it. The US won’t accept it. Iran won’t accept it. Russia won’t accept it. Whoever would be left doing it would get attacked from all sides, from within, and all while getting accused of imperialism from outside. I don’t think a UN peacekeeping mission in territory where conflict is being fueled by the billions from all sides is workable, and if anything, it will attract the attention world powers who say they can only so they can station their bases closer to where their black markets are. It’s still just my opinion, but reality will have to convince me on this one.
Hamas won’t accept it.
That’s a pro not a con. Obviously any international peacekeeping mission’s main objective would be to wipe out Hamas completely. The key is to make it easier for Palestinians to support their liberation from that regime that it would be if the - unfortunately necessary - occupying solders were Israeli.
All the other main groups might be willing to negotiate a peace deal. Hamas (and a few smaller similar groups) are what needs to purged to make that happen.
Changing the guards of a prison, doesn’t make it less a prison. There needs to be economic trade, economic development, a path to prosperity for people to believe in so they stop investing in the past.
As long as Gaza is entirely surrounded by Israel or countries doing Israels bidding, it will remain a prison, unless Israel goes through serious reform and atops being a brutal opressive regime.
For that to happen all illegal settlements would need to be dismantled though.
Or we need the formation af a new state that includes all territories, gives equal rights to arabs and jews and returns as much land as possible to displaced palestinians as well as compensates them properly. Also all terrirorists, that means also all settler terrorists need to be tried and convicted for their atrocities. For that i think it would be best do these trials at the ICC and provide prison facilities in Europe for the pre trial and post trial imprisonment of terrorists.
If Palestinians are given a real perspective and some justice i think it could work out. It would require the current terrorists and corrupt criminals in both governments to be removed from power though. So Bibi and Abbas will fight it tooth and nails.
As an intermediate step we would probably need a new UN mandate and lots of pressure to make Israels apartheid government step down.
As long as Gaza is entirely surrounded by Israel or countries doing Israels bidding, it will remain a prison, unless Israel goes through serious reform and atops being a brutal opressive regime.
This is only true if you agree with the opposite as well: As long as Israel is entirely surrounded by Arab League or countries doing their bidding, it will remain a fortress under siege, unless the Arab world goes through serious reform and atops being brutal opressive regimes.
Otherwise, you’re a hypocrite.
You do realize that Israel has access to the Mediterranian and Egypt is factually an ally of Israel since decades now? Also Israel has functional airports. Israel has free access to move goods by air, sea and partially by land and for people to travel by air, land and sea. I find Israeli products in supermarkets in Europe, from household appliances to produce.
I fail to see, what point you are trying to make. The situation in Israel is nothing like the situation in Gaza.
Ah yes Egypt, Israel’s best friend! Just like Pakistan and India, Greece and Turkey or Argentina and UK. Just because they signed a peace deal, it doesn’t mean they are allies. The following day, after the Hamas attacks, an Egyptian police officer shot at Israeli tourists in Alexandria and killed two Israelis and their Egyptian guide. Anti-Semitism is rife in the region.
Just because Israelis can fly or use the ports, doesn’t mean that they are not under constant dread - my analysis still stands.
The day Israel declared independence Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and volunteer corps from the Arab League (“Holy war army” and “Arab libertarian army” which had an insignia of the star of David with a dagger piercing it) attacked. This was fresh after Palestinian leaders met with Hitler in 1941 and the holocaust. They also saw that all the other neighbouring countries that declared independence in the region, including the ones from historical Palestine who took land from the Palestinian people, like Lebanon, Syria and Transjordan never got attacked or criticised. From Israel’s point of view it was because they are Jews and the Arabs want another holocaust.
I would love to see the settlements in the West Bank dissolved, but it will never happen while the Arab (and Persian) world is still very much antisemitic and wants all the Israelis dead or “gone”. The West Bank and Golan Heights offer strategic depth and security to Israel, and they will never leave. And they are willing to become the next North Korea if they have to, but at least they will be alive.
Now you don’t have to agree with any of this. But those are “facts” for the Israelis. For them it’s an existential crisis. The only way to reform Israel is also to reform the Arab world. Otherwise it’s just a race to the bottom - both sides will elect more and more extremists.
Just because they signed a peace deal, it doesn’t mean they are allies
No it doesnt. It is more the fact, that Egypt receives generous military aid from the US for continued cooperation and works together with Israel on many issues, such as control of the Rafah crossing into Gaza.
The following day, after the Hamas attacks, an Egyptian police officer shot at Israeli tourists in Alexandria and killed two Israelis and their Egyptian guide
And German policemen regularly are caught making “jokes” about the holocaust, celebrating Hitlers birthday and other typical Nazi shit. Still Germany as a state considers itself an ally of Israel and works together with Israel as closely as possible.
This was fresh after Palestinian leaders met with Hitler in 1941
So 75 years ago. Again taking Germany as an example, by this logic mere six years ago, Germany was practically still Hitler.
Now you don’t have to agree with any of this. But those are “facts” for the Israelis. For them it’s an existential crisis. The only way to reform Israel is also to reform the Arab world. Otherwise it’s just a race to the bottom - both sides will elect more and more extremists.
Many Arab countries including Saudi Arabia have been looking to strengthen ties with Israel recently. Before Yitzhak Rabin was murdered in 1995 by a member of the same extremist-right ideology that is now governing Israel, there was great progress made towards finding a peaceful solution. It was the same right wing extremism, stemming from Israel that sabotaged a peaceful solution back than and continues to sabotage a peaceful solution now in favor of more violence and more crimes against the Palestinians.
And to show just how fucked in the head Likud was back then and is today even more so, they depicted Rabin as Hitler in their protests against the Oslo accords. Israel has the power to bring peace, if they had any interest. But they choose to let nationalists and fascists govern and commit the most heinous crimes.
100%. A upvote is simply not enough!
Yeah, but you shouldn’t release people before they’re re-socialized either. Gaza needs an occupying force for the same reason my home country needed one in 1945: Way too many fascist in the population.
Some some survey data:
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And of course there’s the fact that 2013 at least 59% of Palestinians were in favor of executing apostates (i.e. murdering people who cease to be Muslim).
That said, of course there needs to be a positive economic development. Just like there was in Germany under occupation.
Don’t compare Palestine to Germany, compare them to Poland or France. Or another occupied country in WW2.
Do you think they would support armed resistance or the partisans fighting the Nazis? That’s what Palestinians believe. Israel has invaded their land.
That’s part of why the comparison works so well. Large German speaking regions had ended up in other countries (e.g. Poland, France) after the German empire lost WW1 (which Germany and Austria started). That’s akin to Palestinian regions ending up under Israeli occupation after the 1947 and 1967 wars of aggression against Israel.
Hamas terrorists aren’t resistance fighters. They’re just as bad as the SS. They use a perceived slight against their people to justify murdering children. Fortunately this time the balance of power is different.
That’s idea I guess: why take the responsability if not to make changes? Would be senseless otherwise.
Juan Guaidó: I have practiced my entire life for this moment
XD omfg
Seems like theyre starting to go in a sane direction
Fuckin A man.
It should’ve been Egypt, but they don’t want to.
I don’t think they have the capabilities is my guess. It’s understandable they don’t want to, it’s gonna be dangerous af. Politically speaking a UN Occupation and Peace Force would be the best way forward. Best from a country that is far away. China is not a bad contender. They have the resources and could gain valuable trade posts as well as prove their value as a world power they so desperately want to be. Philippines might also not be a bad choice they already have experience in UN Missions in Africa. Other choices could be a lot of states that have no geographical connection and don’t belong to the “west” to avoid it seeming like some (post) imperialistic occupation.
Israel would probably be fine with Egypt but there’s not much love left between Egyptians and Palestinians, and Egypt has its own shit to deal with in more than one way. The US is problematic for the same kind of reason: Palestinian distrust.
What could actually work is Germany, or more generally speaking a EU contingent under German command: Europe provides just over 50% of the total aid to Palestine and Palestinians know that, 20% from Arab countries, 11% from the US. (Providing aid to Palestinians is our favourite way to tell Israel’s right wing to fucking cut it out).
All that hinges on Netanyahu and his Kahanites getting ousted, though, there can’t be anything benefitting a peace process while von Papen and his fascists are in power as their power depends on conflict. Poll-wise it’s looking good.
What could actually work is Germany, or more generally speaking a EU contingent under German command
Why would Germany and the EU ever agree to this? What they get is an impossible mission in a deeply troubled area and all the blame for every ill that will ever befall it in the future.
Other countries might want to keep out of it but peace in the near east is right there at the very top of German national interest. As in: The safety of Israel is most easily achieved if you keep the IDF out of Gaza and the West Bank.
What happens when Islamic Jihad shoves rifles into the hands of 15-year olds and points them at the Germans? When the images of dead kids are posted all over the net? Will that be in the German National Interest? Or when Netanyahu slips in a couple of hundred armed settlers? Will the Germans evict those Jews by force? Will that event be in the German National Interest?
If everyone in Israel and Palestine could be relied upon to act rationally and in good faith, such a mission could be a tremendous success, I agree. But if everyone in Israel and Palestine could be relied upon to act rationally and in good faith, it wouldn’t be needed.
When the images of dead kids are posted all over the net?
The last time that kind of thing happened it looked like this. tl;dr: It’s better to come clean proactively because ultimately the Bundeswehr leaks like a sieve in these kinds of matters, which is a good thing.
The question for the public at large will be “is this cleaner than the IDF doing things” and the answer is invariably yes: Even if the IDF was a troop of angels there’s a fuckton of baggage making it impossible for Gazans to see them as protectors.
Or when Netanyahu slips in a couple of hundred armed settlers?
None of this will happen with Netanyahu and his fascists still in power. I believe that’s the third time I’m saying that now.
Plenty of Israelis went into Gaza all the time without any issues, btw. Figures that Palestinians can tell Smolanim and Kahanites apart.
Will the Germans evict those Jews by force? Will that event be in the German National Interest?
That’s a police matter. Palestine has every right in the world to deport illegal immigrants.
European Forces occupying the middle east gives of hard imperialistic taste. Also seeing how the EU and Germany are so close to the US militarily this could just be seen again as a western power struggle where US proxies are put in place. No what is needed is a country that is non aligned to neither the west nor the middle east.
It’s like 400km from the nearest EU state to Gaza, running a ferry line from Limassol not just to Ashod but also Gaza would be trivial, the whole of the EU is a post-imperial project, tons of Palestinians live in the EU and will be more than willing to help building up the region and you want to bring in, who, the Chinese?
US proxies
Who, the Philippines? Europe isn’t a proxy of the US.
As to “neutrality”: Europe has way better relations with the Arab and Muslim world than the US, they know where we stand on issues such as settlements. You could just as well see it as a wedge to get the US out of the region. Remember when Trump proposed making Jerusalem the capital of Israel?
German and Jews , again? Noooo
I imagine that it’ll be a political mess for whoever winds up with it.
Whoever administers the Gaza strip, has to be neutral, or at least acceptable to the government of Israel. Egypt has a complex history with the government of Israel, and Israel probably doesn’t want Egyptian listening posts inside of their territory.
Egypt warned Israel about this attack. Egypt is not an enemy of Israel and hasn’t been for a long time. Also >inside of their territory. Since when is Gaza part of Israel’s territory?? Pretty biased language there.
They control the territory militarily, it’s defacto Israeli territory. I don’t wish it to be so, but it is.
From a Military perspective intentions don’t matter, only capabilities. Egypt is a theater competitor, it would be foolish to give them more military capabilities.
Oh I didn’t know the Golan Heights were basically Austrian Territory when they controlled during their UN Mandate. See how stupid that sounds? If a peace force would move in the IDF would obviously not be in military control anymore there.
A theater competitor for what theater? The Yom Kippur War was 50 years ago.
The Austrians would be foolish not to collect intelligence where their troops were deployed. It’s about capabilities. A military presence is a risk, and it’s part of the political calculus.
I’m happy to debate with you but I ask that you not make personal attacks (calling me stupid) when we both have useful perspectives to contribute to the conversation.
At least Egypt doesn’t officially deny the Israel’s right to exist. That’s good enough.
Not really good enough.
Inside of the borders of Israel, they are going to have security concerns, and they are not going to want foreign militaries to collect intelligence, to base weapons, to put them in a strategic disadvantage.
If the UN is going to police the area, there’s going to be a long negotiation with Israel to determine which countries they find “acceptable” to be the peacekeeping force.
Maybe a joint international task group, UN backed?
Either that or Portugal
Wow straight to defending the abuser…ok.
I’m not making any pro apartheid or pro-colonial statements, I’m trying to illustrate a political and military calculus that would be used if peacekeeping forces were to be deployed.
Very true. Fortunately, that is what Israel is also espousing. They don’t want to rule it after the war. That’s good. Not much else that they’re doing is good, but that is.
Hamas, however, sure does want to rule it after the war.
Hamas needs to be removed like a tumor, if the world doesn’t want Israel to do it, then another Arab nation or world coalition needs to go in and deal with them. They can’t be allowed to stay. The only way any positive can come is if both nations get new, younger leaders who want to coexist
Those Arab nations are largely supportive of Hamas. More because they are anti-Israel than they are pro-Hamas.
Those Arab nations also hate and look down on Palestinians, so their fake support for Palestine is more about being anti Israel like you said.
Hamas needs to be removed, yes, but they’re not a tumor; they’re a virus. To quote Bassem Youssef, you don’t cure a virus by hitting the patient with a sledgehammer.
Hamas was elected though, and the mass majority of Palestinians support them.
in 2006. Half the population of Gaza wasnt born when Hamas was elected.
Israels, Hamas and PA have blocked elections in both Gaza and the West Bank ever since.
So Palestinians have two choices, either to support a political party that mostly complies with what Israel wants and doesn’t protest to loudly the oppression or another more rebellious faction. I perfectly understand why a lot of people out of desperation support Hamas, but the core issue here is the military and economic oppression that Israel is exercising over Gaza, if this ceased then automatically Hamas would lose a lot of its supporters.
Same with Bibi, if there is no Hamas, people won’t vote for him.
O I’m not here saying Israel is clean either, I was just pointing out that Hamas is heavily supported by Palestinians.
You know what? Coincidentally, there was a fresh poll done regarding that ending Ocober 6th. You can’t get numbers which are any fresher. Have a read.
I believe the israeli political leadership said they will have no responsibility for it. They did not say they won’t have control over it. I fully expect them to continue the embargo forever. But just say they’re not responsible for the suffering inside due to the embargo.
This is assuming they don’t find some way to completely ethnically cleanse Gaza strip in the next month or two
They don’t want to rule it after the war.
They are military occupying it, though, and are considering doing more than that.
Of course. But they have outright stated that they don’t want to manage it after the war has ended.
For now. There’s no way they won’t give it the West Bank treatment. Remember that these are the same people who had to be removed at gunpoint from Gaza in 2005.
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Bro.
Sounds like you have decent thoughts.
Why are you a cunt?
Did reddit hurt you?
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The thing about responding to stuff with humor is that there is billions of humans responding to stuff with humor. It gets tiring when every thread about serious things has a troll trying to be funny.
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of course it’s a load of horse shit but it comes from a place of truth, doesn’t it? where there’s people, there will be someone to establish power. you can’t just instate a vacuum of power. as far as i know, vacuums of power have always been volatile and led to weird rebel groups found proto states. maybe the post of that dude is just insane though, but i thought I’d try to interpret it
Palestine should extend to its internationally recognized borders as anything else is just an unsustainable non-nation, and thus nothing more than theatre and rewarding the Israeli fascists who have doing the “colonising” all these years and their fascist parties in government who right now are activelly commiting Genocide.
Further, Israel should be under Economic Sanctions from the EU until it complies.
This “international protectorate in Gaza” is just bullshit diplomatic cover for the genocidal actions of Israel - akin to “kill as many as you want and we’ll calm down the rebelious feeling of the survivors in there afterwards” - that just endorses the status quo built by the Israeli fascists (thus rewarding them) and no doubt comes from the usual inept (or worse) politicians over there like Ursula van der Lyen who has never held a post were she didn’t screw things up, in Germany or abroad.
This shit is like the Americans spewing their bollocks about “humanitarian pauses” whilst their government calls anybody critical of Israel “an anti-semite”, parking 2 aircraft carriers in the region to “support Israel” and working on approval of a couple more billions for that country while it purposefully bombs civilians, only at least the leaders of the United States Of America aren’t anywhere as stupid as wanting to put their own countrymen on the ground to sanitize the fast growing bloody pile of bones Israel has been raising in Palestine.
It’s disgusting to watch this kind of sleazy diplomatic provision of covering to the genocidal fascists in Israel - invariably accepting of the very reshaping of Palestine that those fascists have imposed by violent means over the years and against UN resolutions and activelly refusing the possibility of sanctions against these specific genociders, quite a contrast to what was (deservedly) done with Russia after it invaded Ukraine.
