Can we all please admit that we merely tolerate keyboard as a gaming input device because of the precision that mouse provides? (Except maybe some special cases, like RTS) It’s a glorified typewriter, and we (PC gamers) use it only because at some point, it was all that we had and we just got used to it. There must be something better than a panel of buttons.
I’m not sure I agree with “tolerating” keyboard. I quite like it over a joystick! The benefit in complex games (like RTS, as you mention) is obvious, but even in most 3D games I prefer the instant reaction and definite axis of WASD over the 360° analog inputs of a joystick. There are not many times I would rather move at 2° forwards-right at a ramping X% speed instead of simply moving forwards at 100% instantly. As for racing or other games that require precise analog inputs, I would generally prefer something that is bigger than my thumb i.e a racing wheel.
That isn’t to say I completely disagree, though! The ergonomics are a clear disadvantage. Most keyboards are not ergonomic for typing, let alone gaming. It would be fantastic to see more gaming-specialised keypad devices other than that one Razor one and whatever Chinese Amazon specials are kicking around. But the keypad format is not something I would want to forego as any FPS I play for more than 20 hours I usually have the entire left half of the keyboard bound to something for quick access.
I upvoted you because this is a great discussion point. :)
I’m one of the very few people who loves the Steam Controller. If given an option between KBM and Steam Controller, I generally do the latter. The right pad as mouse isn’t as accurate as a mouse, but damned if it isn’t way more comfy from the couch.
I guess what I’m saying is: I’d suggest it is less about KBM and more about what games you play, where you play them, and probably whether or not you play multiplayer.
As a longtime PC gamer, Games like Dark Souls was impossible for me to play with a keyboard. But I kept watching my friends play it and really liked it a lot. Got one of those discount Xbox controller knockoffs and got pretty good with the game using a controller.
When the Steamdeck came around, I felt right at home with a controller.
It’s shifted dramatically where 90% of games, I’m playing controller. But still can’t play FPSes with one. (Even though I got pretty good with Halo back in the day)
As I get older I’ve grown to just appreciate comfort over precision. I don’t play competitive multiplayer, in fact the only multiplayer I play is COD zombies with some buddies once a week. And we all suck anyways so we’re just having a laugh. I’d much rather just lean back in my chair with a controller.
Nah, mouse and keyboard is great for a lot of things. Strategy games, most MMORPGs. Heck even fighting games are actually really nice on a keyboard if you can get used to it, you can do very complicated movements by just pressing a few buttons, the actual analog input is actually completely unutilized in most fighting games anyway.
Having such a precise control over the buttons you press as well as having such a large amount of them is really important to a lot of games. And honestly even if we made a unique controller to replicate this precise input, we would still end up using a keyboard anyway because you can actually type messages on it, too.
I specifically mentioned those special cases. It’s obviously nearly impossible to play RTS and MMORPGs with a controller effectively. And of course another reason we use keyboards is that some games are just text input/typing-heavy, it would be mighty inconvenient switching to and from another input method very often.
But I also think that it’s easy to argue the point that the device designed with the sole purpose of entering text is not optimal for navigating characters in 2D/3D space. Something better just hasn’t come along yet or it hasn’t been popularized enough. An improved mouse design could also offload a lot of inputs from the kb hand, like those MMORPG mice with macro buttons. There’s definitely room for improvement.
Idk, anything that does what a keyboard does for gaming will basically just end up being a keyboard honestly. If you want a set of easily accessible, customizable buttons for a videogame, what better than just a whole board filled with them really. I think that KBM has stuck around so long is that it is just a great way to play a lot of games.
My main point is just that I don’t think a lot of people are “tolerating” keyboard controls like you initially said.
Notice, that I didn’t say it’s impossible to use KB for gaming, I just said (or implied) that it’s not optimal. It’s not good, it’s just what we have and what we are used to, and there’s a lot of room for improvement. And I say this as a PC gamer of 30+ years. So much so that when I lay my hand on a keyboard it automatically assumes the WASD position, even if I intend to type.
And I’m glad that I brought this perspective to your attention, because we often don’t question what we are used to since childhood. Hopefully, these discussions will eventually bring us something better, that we have not yet thought of.
It is optimal though. I don’t understand why you are saying it’s not? Aiming with a mouse is 9 million % more effective than thumbsticks. Like that’s reality. If you had two equal skilled teams, one on controllers, and one on kb/m (and it’s a first person shooter), the kb/m gang will win like 99% of the time just based on that.
You’re just taking your own opinion about kb/m and assuming that it applies to the masses. It doesn’t. Vast majority of people would agree with me. Kb/m is better for non-controller games.
You’re missing my point and just sticking to the usual false dichotomy of KBM vs. gamepads. I’m saying, we should come up with something better than a device designed for entering text, and I didn’t even criticize mice. Keyboard isn’t and can’t be “optimal” gaming device because that’s not its purpose, and it’s not what it was optimized for. Games just adapted to accommodate the devices already included with every PC, with varying degrees of success. That is just a fact, not an opinion. Keyboards weren’t made for playing games, we just adapted to using them, therefore they aren’t optimal.
Which means that we are yet to develop the optimal device for gaming to use in conjunction with the mouse, one that was designed specifically for that purpose. Just because you “don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse” (quote from your other comment) it doesn’t mean that nobody can design something better.
Yes, controller are purpose built for gaming, and they are definitely far superior in a lot of game genres. But mouse still is better for precision control, be it aiming a gun or selecting a unit. And keyboard is holding it back, because it’s just an unoptimized row of buttons.
Who in their right mind plays souls games or any action RPG with mouse / keyboard?? You cannot even play demon souls with a mouse. A mouse is for aiming in shooters and the like.
Can you not? I’ve played various third person combat games (are they all part of “hack n slash”?) with a mouse just fine. I do prefer controller, but there’s nothing wrong with using a kb/mouse in most of those games. Is Dark Souls control scheme really that bad?
I’ve been thinking of a mouse / controller hybrid solution being the ultimate gaming peripheral. Joystick to walk and drive, mouse to aim. Should easily hold its own in PC shooters and console racers.
Gaming sticks (and weird ass abominations like trackball mice) were quite popular for some time during late 90s and early 00s, but now they’re mostly limited to certain games like flight/space games and usually part of a HOTAS setup.
What I miss on keyboard & mouse setups is any form of analogue input, usually best for driving in games and walking faster/slower etc.
But nothing is stopping me from just plugging in any controller and it’ll usually work on PC just fine.
For everything else I simply prefer keyboard anyway, many more buttons and combinations that controllers often lack. Lots of controller supported games these days need ways around having too many buttons by adding modifiers or having to use select-wheels and what not.
Hell I’d even go as far as adding a Stream Deck to my setup (I don’t even stream), just to have another panel of (configurable) buttons to use for various games and stuff.
On PC, I game exclusively with trackballs and have since the nineties. I’ve never not been given the side eye when someone found out that’s how I play.
When was this magical time during which they were popular?
I remember a friend had one of those things, it was some experience lol
I think one of my uncles and one of my teachers had one too, but it’s been like 24 years or so.
They were also featured heavily on just about every computer expo we went to during that time, I think it was a pretty short period that they were marketed but I remember seeing them everywhere for that time. Like it was the hype at the moment, like how 3D screens and VR had been hyped really hard for a short while and then just died down kinda quickly.
Well, fair enough that you were exposed to them. I didn’t have a lot of friends, especially not those even remotely into any kind of tech, as a kid; I think I first heard of trackballs from a programming teacher in about 1996 and bought one to try out of curiosity. Ever since then I’ve used one whenever it was an option.
I’ve even mostly used the same model. If you look in my comment history, you can see I recently mentioned that most of what I use is Kensington Orbits. I’ve tried other models, but they don’t work for me.
The one PC gaming exception for me is Minecraft. In that game you have to right-click a lot (as I’m sure you know) and I guess I haven’t developed the muscles for that because it makes my wrist very tired very quickly. Still, I play a lot of FPS games and have no problem holding the right click for zoom and such; only quick, repetitive right-clicking causes problems for me.
edit: To address your original comment, I have one friend who uses a trackball at work but a regular mouse for anything else. Other than that, I rarely meet anyone who has even heard of them, let alone used them, let alone consistently done so.
I remember playing Red Alert on 90s Toshiba Satellite Pro laptops with the cursor nipple in the middle of the keyboard, I got pretty good at using the nipple (lmao). But they didn’t really come back on newer laptop models after that.
Same seemed to happen with most trackball hype, although I knew they were still around. I don’t recall if it was one with the ball on top or on the left side, all I remember not being able to ever scroll in the direction I needed because the angle was always off for me.
Another thing from that time that stuck with me is that gaming joysticks were more common. I had one for some favorite games, but because I used it so much I am now crippled with the “Invert Y” syndrome. Whenever I play games with controllers I will have to invert the Y axis, because that’s what makes most sense based on the joysticks from back then.
Yup I’m with you here. I love KBM and it’s my preferred way to play for most games, but when it comes to driving I’d much prefer a controller with analogue triggers and a stick (unless it’s a sim racer, in which case a wheel of course) for that extra precision.
Unfortunately I can’t think of a good design to give that level of control to just one hand. Analogue keys are a thing but they sound awful, nowhere near enough precision due to the short travel of them.
You can technically get analog keyboard switches for your WASD movement and such, but afaik it’d be quite expensive and require a fairly customized keyboard to pull off. But it can be done!
Also I love having extra mouse buttons for all my modifiers. I use mine in WoW to access all my hotbars without moving my hand to press any modifier keys on the keyboard, really nice setup.
Yeah I thought about trying an analogue keyboard but I don’t think I’ll enjoy how those keys would work, just doesn’t feel natural on a keyboard.
I also recently got a mouse with 12 buttons, specifically for WoW at the time lol. I have whole grid set up for just using those buttons. So many more (easy) keybinds opened up because of that.
I used to play with a guy who was awesome with a mouse in his right hand and a controller in his left. Pretty cool setup. I tried it out and it wasn’t for me
My wife does this because shes purely a M+K player and one game, she was sucking st. So she plugged in one of my controllers and moved with the controller, but looked with the mouse.
I’m almost entirely mouse/keyboard but some games are just better with controllers…Rocket League, MGS, Yakuza…couldn’t imagine enjoying them without it.
Azeron cyborg is really nice but takes a bit to setup you keybinds for each game since even between fps games they can’t decide what key opens a door.
On the azeron your thumb has a joystick which is w a s d then that leaves all your other fingers with multiple keys each so you don’t really have to move your hand around that much. Still need a keyboard around for typing though in chat or a game where you name stuff
As I said, except special occasions. But ultimately, it’s still not perfect for anything but typing-heavy games. I can probably imagine a better propriety input method even for RTS that would forgo finger gymnastics.
Can we all please admit that we merely tolerate keyboard as a gaming input device because of the precision that mouse provides? (Except maybe some special cases, like RTS) It’s a glorified typewriter, and we (PC gamers) use it only because at some point, it was all that we had and we just got used to it. There must be something better than a panel of buttons.
I’m not sure I agree with “tolerating” keyboard. I quite like it over a joystick! The benefit in complex games (like RTS, as you mention) is obvious, but even in most 3D games I prefer the instant reaction and definite axis of WASD over the 360° analog inputs of a joystick. There are not many times I would rather move at 2° forwards-right at a ramping X% speed instead of simply moving forwards at 100% instantly. As for racing or other games that require precise analog inputs, I would generally prefer something that is bigger than my thumb i.e a racing wheel.
That isn’t to say I completely disagree, though! The ergonomics are a clear disadvantage. Most keyboards are not ergonomic for typing, let alone gaming. It would be fantastic to see more gaming-specialised keypad devices other than that one Razor one and whatever Chinese Amazon specials are kicking around. But the keypad format is not something I would want to forego as any FPS I play for more than 20 hours I usually have the entire left half of the keyboard bound to something for quick access.
I upvoted you because this is a great discussion point. :)
Not sure on that one.
I’m one of the very few people who loves the Steam Controller. If given an option between KBM and Steam Controller, I generally do the latter. The right pad as mouse isn’t as accurate as a mouse, but damned if it isn’t way more comfy from the couch.
I guess what I’m saying is: I’d suggest it is less about KBM and more about what games you play, where you play them, and probably whether or not you play multiplayer.
As a longtime PC gamer, Games like Dark Souls was impossible for me to play with a keyboard. But I kept watching my friends play it and really liked it a lot. Got one of those discount Xbox controller knockoffs and got pretty good with the game using a controller.
When the Steamdeck came around, I felt right at home with a controller.
It’s shifted dramatically where 90% of games, I’m playing controller. But still can’t play FPSes with one. (Even though I got pretty good with Halo back in the day)
As I get older I’ve grown to just appreciate comfort over precision. I don’t play competitive multiplayer, in fact the only multiplayer I play is COD zombies with some buddies once a week. And we all suck anyways so we’re just having a laugh. I’d much rather just lean back in my chair with a controller.
Nah, mouse and keyboard is great for a lot of things. Strategy games, most MMORPGs. Heck even fighting games are actually really nice on a keyboard if you can get used to it, you can do very complicated movements by just pressing a few buttons, the actual analog input is actually completely unutilized in most fighting games anyway.
Having such a precise control over the buttons you press as well as having such a large amount of them is really important to a lot of games. And honestly even if we made a unique controller to replicate this precise input, we would still end up using a keyboard anyway because you can actually type messages on it, too.
Fighting games with a keyboard? Scary stuff.
It works surprisingly well, most 2D fighting games are just doing 8 directional movement anyway, so it can make a lot of inputs easier actually
I specifically mentioned those special cases. It’s obviously nearly impossible to play RTS and MMORPGs with a controller effectively. And of course another reason we use keyboards is that some games are just text input/typing-heavy, it would be mighty inconvenient switching to and from another input method very often.
But I also think that it’s easy to argue the point that the device designed with the sole purpose of entering text is not optimal for navigating characters in 2D/3D space. Something better just hasn’t come along yet or it hasn’t been popularized enough. An improved mouse design could also offload a lot of inputs from the kb hand, like those MMORPG mice with macro buttons. There’s definitely room for improvement.
Idk, anything that does what a keyboard does for gaming will basically just end up being a keyboard honestly. If you want a set of easily accessible, customizable buttons for a videogame, what better than just a whole board filled with them really. I think that KBM has stuck around so long is that it is just a great way to play a lot of games.
My main point is just that I don’t think a lot of people are “tolerating” keyboard controls like you initially said.
Huh? On non-gamepad games (i.e. Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game) Keyboard is completely fine. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
This is the first time in my life I’ve ever heard this opinion lol.
Notice, that I didn’t say it’s impossible to use KB for gaming, I just said (or implied) that it’s not optimal. It’s not good, it’s just what we have and what we are used to, and there’s a lot of room for improvement. And I say this as a PC gamer of 30+ years. So much so that when I lay my hand on a keyboard it automatically assumes the WASD position, even if I intend to type.
And I’m glad that I brought this perspective to your attention, because we often don’t question what we are used to since childhood. Hopefully, these discussions will eventually bring us something better, that we have not yet thought of.
It is optimal though. I don’t understand why you are saying it’s not? Aiming with a mouse is 9 million % more effective than thumbsticks. Like that’s reality. If you had two equal skilled teams, one on controllers, and one on kb/m (and it’s a first person shooter), the kb/m gang will win like 99% of the time just based on that.
You’re just taking your own opinion about kb/m and assuming that it applies to the masses. It doesn’t. Vast majority of people would agree with me. Kb/m is better for non-controller games.
You’re missing my point and just sticking to the usual false dichotomy of KBM vs. gamepads. I’m saying, we should come up with something better than a device designed for entering text, and I didn’t even criticize mice. Keyboard isn’t and can’t be “optimal” gaming device because that’s not its purpose, and it’s not what it was optimized for. Games just adapted to accommodate the devices already included with every PC, with varying degrees of success. That is just a fact, not an opinion. Keyboards weren’t made for playing games, we just adapted to using them, therefore they aren’t optimal.
Which means that we are yet to develop the optimal device for gaming to use in conjunction with the mouse, one that was designed specifically for that purpose. Just because you “don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse” (quote from your other comment) it doesn’t mean that nobody can design something better.
Yes, controller are purpose built for gaming, and they are definitely far superior in a lot of game genres. But mouse still is better for precision control, be it aiming a gun or selecting a unit. And keyboard is holding it back, because it’s just an unoptimized row of buttons.
Okay. Well pitch something better then. I’m genuinely interested. I’m not trying to be aggressive.
Per their original comment, they aren’t saying mouse is bad. Their problem is with the keyboard.
Why are you bringing up the mouse again?
I also disagree with the keyboard comment. I see no issue with it and I don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse.
Who in their right mind plays souls games or any action RPG with mouse / keyboard?? You cannot even play demon souls with a mouse. A mouse is for aiming in shooters and the like.
Can you not? I’ve played various third person combat games (are they all part of “hack n slash”?) with a mouse just fine. I do prefer controller, but there’s nothing wrong with using a kb/mouse in most of those games. Is Dark Souls control scheme really that bad?
You misread my comment. I’m saying Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game. I updated the comment for clarity. I see how it wasn’t clear, my bad.
speak for yourself. my Keyboard(s) tolerated me when i got hyperfocused during a gaming session not the other way around.
True, depending on the game of course.
I’ve been thinking of a mouse / controller hybrid solution being the ultimate gaming peripheral. Joystick to walk and drive, mouse to aim. Should easily hold its own in PC shooters and console racers.
Gaming sticks (and weird ass abominations like trackball mice) were quite popular for some time during late 90s and early 00s, but now they’re mostly limited to certain games like flight/space games and usually part of a HOTAS setup.
What I miss on keyboard & mouse setups is any form of analogue input, usually best for driving in games and walking faster/slower etc. But nothing is stopping me from just plugging in any controller and it’ll usually work on PC just fine.
For everything else I simply prefer keyboard anyway, many more buttons and combinations that controllers often lack. Lots of controller supported games these days need ways around having too many buttons by adding modifiers or having to use select-wheels and what not.
Hell I’d even go as far as adding a Stream Deck to my setup (I don’t even stream), just to have another panel of (configurable) buttons to use for various games and stuff.
On PC, I game exclusively with trackballs and have since the nineties. I’ve never not been given the side eye when someone found out that’s how I play.
When was this magical time during which they were popular?
I remember a friend had one of those things, it was some experience lol
I think one of my uncles and one of my teachers had one too, but it’s been like 24 years or so.
They were also featured heavily on just about every computer expo we went to during that time, I think it was a pretty short period that they were marketed but I remember seeing them everywhere for that time. Like it was the hype at the moment, like how 3D screens and VR had been hyped really hard for a short while and then just died down kinda quickly.
Well, fair enough that you were exposed to them. I didn’t have a lot of friends, especially not those even remotely into any kind of tech, as a kid; I think I first heard of trackballs from a programming teacher in about 1996 and bought one to try out of curiosity. Ever since then I’ve used one whenever it was an option.
I’ve even mostly used the same model. If you look in my comment history, you can see I recently mentioned that most of what I use is Kensington Orbits. I’ve tried other models, but they don’t work for me.
The one PC gaming exception for me is Minecraft. In that game you have to right-click a lot (as I’m sure you know) and I guess I haven’t developed the muscles for that because it makes my wrist very tired very quickly. Still, I play a lot of FPS games and have no problem holding the right click for zoom and such; only quick, repetitive right-clicking causes problems for me.
edit: To address your original comment, I have one friend who uses a trackball at work but a regular mouse for anything else. Other than that, I rarely meet anyone who has even heard of them, let alone used them, let alone consistently done so.
I guess everyone can develop a device preference.
I remember playing Red Alert on 90s Toshiba Satellite Pro laptops with the cursor nipple in the middle of the keyboard, I got pretty good at using the nipple (lmao). But they didn’t really come back on newer laptop models after that.
Same seemed to happen with most trackball hype, although I knew they were still around. I don’t recall if it was one with the ball on top or on the left side, all I remember not being able to ever scroll in the direction I needed because the angle was always off for me.
Another thing from that time that stuck with me is that gaming joysticks were more common. I had one for some favorite games, but because I used it so much I am now crippled with the “Invert Y” syndrome. Whenever I play games with controllers I will have to invert the Y axis, because that’s what makes most sense based on the joysticks from back then.
Yup I’m with you here. I love KBM and it’s my preferred way to play for most games, but when it comes to driving I’d much prefer a controller with analogue triggers and a stick (unless it’s a sim racer, in which case a wheel of course) for that extra precision.
Unfortunately I can’t think of a good design to give that level of control to just one hand. Analogue keys are a thing but they sound awful, nowhere near enough precision due to the short travel of them.
You can technically get analog keyboard switches for your WASD movement and such, but afaik it’d be quite expensive and require a fairly customized keyboard to pull off. But it can be done!
Also I love having extra mouse buttons for all my modifiers. I use mine in WoW to access all my hotbars without moving my hand to press any modifier keys on the keyboard, really nice setup.
Yeah I thought about trying an analogue keyboard but I don’t think I’ll enjoy how those keys would work, just doesn’t feel natural on a keyboard.
I also recently got a mouse with 12 buttons, specifically for WoW at the time lol. I have whole grid set up for just using those buttons. So many more (easy) keybinds opened up because of that.
I used to play with a guy who was awesome with a mouse in his right hand and a controller in his left. Pretty cool setup. I tried it out and it wasn’t for me
My wife does this because shes purely a M+K player and one game, she was sucking st. So she plugged in one of my controllers and moved with the controller, but looked with the mouse.
I’m almost entirely mouse/keyboard but some games are just better with controllers…Rocket League, MGS, Yakuza…couldn’t imagine enjoying them without it.
Skill issue
I aspire to git gud one day.
Azeron cyborg is really nice but takes a bit to setup you keybinds for each game since even between fps games they can’t decide what key opens a door.
On the azeron your thumb has a joystick which is w a s d then that leaves all your other fingers with multiple keys each so you don’t really have to move your hand around that much. Still need a keyboard around for typing though in chat or a game where you name stuff
Yes! That’s the kind of stuff I hope goes mainstream and supported more. Something purpose-built not for typing, but for gaming.
And I’m sure it would be quite comfortable to have a TKL (or some other compact KB) between that and a mouse and switch between inputs when necessary.
Depends on the type of game.
As I said, except special occasions. But ultimately, it’s still not perfect for anything but typing-heavy games. I can probably imagine a better propriety input method even for RTS that would forgo finger gymnastics.