Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said the reelection of former President Trump would be the “end of democracy” in an interview released Saturday by The Guardian.
“It will be the end of democracy, functional democracy,” Sanders said in the interview.
The Vermont senator also said in the interview that he thinks that another round of Trump as the president will be a lot more extreme than the first.
“He’s made that clear,” Sanders said. “There’s a lot of personal bitterness, he’s a bitter man, having gone through four indictments, humiliated, he’s going to take it out on his enemies. We’ve got to explain to the American people what that means to them — what the collapse of American democracy will mean to all of us.”
Sanders’s words echo those President Biden made in a recent campaign speech during which he said that Trump’s return to the presidency would risk American democracy. The president highlighted the Jan. 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol in an attempt to cement a point about Trump and other Republicans espousing a kind of extremism that was seen by the world on that day.
They are moving away from “Both Sides” and starting “Biden supports genocide.” It’s just a new way for below average people to think they’re smarter than everyone else.
Biden does support Genocide, in this particular instance. Giving him hell for it and trying to do what people can in order to save all the innocent people getting bombed and shot right now, is fine.
Trump is still infinitely worse. If you think 20,000 dead Gazans is bad, wait until you see what Trump wants to do. Last time around, he fucked up the response to a global crisis that’s currently killed over a million Americans, and that was without even trying; and without any of the vengeful things he’s itching to do this time around if he gets in.
Yes, I think the main issue is (sadly), I don’t think we have an option that actually wants to stop the genocide. It would likely need to be handled by something other than elections, like larger protests.
America and Israel are joined at the hip. Anything less than unconditional military support is not a political position conducive to getting elected, there is intense lobbyism going on to make sure of that. Then there is also the evangelical angle that the jews must control Israel for the rapture to come, so they don’t give two shits about genocide.
Yeah. I saw the stories about protests around the world and felt guilty that I wasn’t in them.
That mother fuckers incompetence is going to kill millions on millions as well as any hope for America’s future. Fucking Nero while Americans burn
The salient point here that so many people are missing is that allowing Trump to be elected because of some misguided ideological purity will absolutely do nothing to protect or liberate the Palestinian people, so why even pretend to care about that, if you aren’t a right wing troll? Allowing far right demagogues to usurp control of western nations will, in fact, cause untold suffering of billions. Palestinians included.
If you are an actual leftist, then it is your duty to consider this moral liability, and soak in the discomfort of the situation with the rest of us. Ideological purity does not cleanse you from this, not matter how much you wish that.
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If Biden is such a shitty candidate that he loses to Trump, that’s his fault. Man, the US left loves to eat their own so badly. “Ideological purity”, my ass.
Why doesn’t Biden bear any responsibility for protecting the US from a wannabe dictator? He isn’t some force of nature. He has autonomy. He can make decisions. He can do the right thing.
People for whom support for genocide is a dealbreaker exist whether you understand them or not.
If Biden wants their votes, he cannot continue to support genocide.
No amount of insults or accusations will change that.
I mean I know it has nothing to do with genocide because I’ve had this same conversation with the same trolls for almost two decades now. Get better material.
Biden’s support for Netanyahu’s genocide is only months old.
Very good
Biden’s support for Netanyahu’s genocide is not “very good,” no matter how much you like it.
Those people are going to share some responsibility for the much worse genocide that Trump ushers in, then. They can claim it’s not their fault if that happens, but they’ll be lying.
The Democratic party will share the majority of the blame.
I won’t disagree with that. That doesn’t mean helping Trump get elected should win you some sort of good wise citizen award.
The problem is that if you let any political party “take you hostage”, even for the best reasons, then you’re letting the “terrorists” win (please note the double-quotes; its figuratively speaking, not literally). There are better alternatives to Biden who are not Trump available to run, but the Democratic party establishment won’t allow that.
Our vote is a sacred thing. Fellow citizens took bayonets to the chest, and watched their body parts fly apart in different directions on foreign beaches, to protect our right to express our free will via voting. I’m not going to let my/any party manipulate that to their advantage. (There’s some historical quote about everybody being damned that I would quote, but can’t remember the actual quote at the moment.)
So you’re working hard on getting better voting systems in place? Supporting progressive candidates and trying to change all the unfair systems that currently make it impossible for them to get a fair shake? Trying to eliminate the establishment Democrats and replacing them with people who will make things better for the working class, so people won’t be driven into the arms of even worse Republican candidates?
Because if you were just sitting back waiting for things to magically become better, and promising to vote for a better candidate in the unlikely event that the current system produces one, that would be terribly irresponsible. And very unlikely to succeed.
(I’m not saying you’re not doing those things. I don’t know. I also know I’m not doing them either; I’m becoming more and more guilty about my lack of any real action in the face of the truly horrifying things that might be coming to us this year and next if the election goes the wrong way.)
Preemptively blaming them for the loss that centrist Democrats would prefer to having to abandon support for genocide hasn’t changed the situation:
If Biden wants the votes of people for whom genocide is a dealbreaker, he cannot continue supporting genocide.
You are either a completely naive person, or a paid misinformation actor. There is no scenario on earth where Trump is any better for averting genocide. Have you not been paying attention to anything Trump has been saying? You don’t like genocide, that’s great neither do I, but abstaining from voting or voting for Trump is the most childish, foolish thing you can do in this election.
The other poster is correct. If you don’t vote, or vote for Trump, and he wins, you are partly to blame for that. Any future human rights violations are on your hands.
Well it’s a good thing I’m not doing that, then. I’m voting for Biden.
Biden should not be supporting genocide. If he wants the votes of people for whom genocide is a dealbreaker, he must cease his support for genocide.
I know you don’t want to hear this. But that’s not changing the situation.
Then maybe don’t jump to conclusions regarding people who also oppose genocide. Maybe don’t sling insults and accusations, like so:
You’re so keyed up that you’re imagining that people who agree with you are part of an international conspiracy.
Bullshit. It’s on the parties, for not giving Americans choices on who they can vote for.
No, it’s on the voters for not voting in better candidates. I was all for Bernie until he lost the primary. It sucks that he didn’t make it to the general election, but no way in hell was I going to throw my vote away on a 3rd party candidate. It’s frustrating, I get it, but people need to be realistic with their votes.
The stakes in this election are just too high. Never in my life have we had such a terrifying dictator-wannabe candidate running.
Good luck in the hellscape that’s coming, then. You’ll have the comfort of your explanation for why it’s not your fault.
It’s not going to be my fault; I’m voting for Biden.
That doesn’t change the opinion of those for whom support for genocide is a dealbreaker. If he wants their support, he cannot continue to support genocide.
If centrists want to win, they need to get used to the idea that they might not always get every single thing they want. Biden may need to do something centrists don’t like and cease his support for genocide.
It’s not our fault because we didn’t vote for Biden in the 2020 primaries. The selfish pieces of shit who did decided to fuck over progressives and leftists and now you’re all mad because you can’t count on us in the general? Pound sand. Stop electing procorporate trash in the primaries.
Are you under the impression that I didn’t vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary? Because I did. I’m not one of the pieces of shit who fucked him over. I don’t like them any more than you do.
You need to realize that there may not be a primary or general election for you or I to vote or get fucked over in for quite some time if Trump wins. If that happens, it’ll be your fault, and I’ll just have as much right to be mad at you as you seem to be at me right now.
Refusing to vote for Biden in the general is going to help nobody except the absolute worst and most antidemocratic of the procorporate trash. If you want to do that, you’re helping them, in conjunction with the people who fucked you and me over in the primaries.
No we won’t. We didn’t want Biden in the first place. The blame lies with every piece of shit who voted for him in the 2020 primaries.
Blame can be shared. If Trump wins, it’s partly the DNC’s fault yes, and obviously a lot of the fault is Trump’s, and also it’s partly yours, if you help him get elected through inaction.
You can’t argue with these people. They’re going out of their way to prove a point that will ultimately get Trump elected.
I know. I’m probably going to quit after the most recent message. IDK, I wanted to try to talk some sense into the person, because it’s important.
Maybe they’re a shill, or maybe sincerely think they’re doing something good for progressives with that stance. Either way I feel like putting the counterargument out there is a good thing to do. But yeah now it’s just a merry-go-round of back and forth.
Buddy, the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries specifically to fuck over progressives and leftists knowing full well they hated his guts are at fault. You can’t assign blame to me without assigning blame to them as well.
So say it now: People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are selfish pieces of shit.
Who are these people in your imagination? Like I know people want good things, and I hate them I’ll vote for bad things on purpose argbglglbgbgg. On the Republican side that exists to a certain extent yes; I know a bunch of people who did vote for Biden and not one of them is evil like that in their motivation. In the results? Yeah, maybe.
I think Biden is a center-right rich white guy, and a progressive candidate would be way better. But I don’t think people voting for him are actively trying to wreck everything; they’re just misinformed. Is this idea that they did it specifically to fuck over leftists, what is it based on?
I do assign blame to them also, yes. The Democrats electing center-right corporatists who don’t really look out for the working class is a huge part of the problem. But I also assign part of the blame to you, if you’re (through inaction) actively helping the end of the world come to the US because you didn’t get your way.
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The “Genocide Joe” shit is so obviously right wing astroturfing I legitimately cannot read it without imagining trump sitting at a computer typing with his index fingers.
To be very clear - there are some very big issues with the military support of Israel which should discussed out in the open. But doing the Trump name calling thing isn’t engaging in good faith. It’s obvious trolling.
>The “Genocide Joe” shit is so obviously right wing astroturfing I legitimately cannot read it without imagining trump sitting at a computer typing with his index fingers.
got some evidence for this accusation?
Evidence of me imagining how Trump types?
no, the astroturfing.
Are you asking me how I know that leftists who want Donald Trump to win are fake leftists?
Oh they’re leftists. And they’re hell bent on bringing democracy down just like Trump is- but for them, it’s because they’re throwing temper tantrums over a single issue.
So in a way/ they’re worse. Because they are doing it on purpose.
Call us fake leftists if you like but if you need our votes what you label us is irrelevant. We aren’t voting for Joe Biden again. Stop voting for procorporate trash in the primaries.
i’m asking what makes you think leftists who won’t vote for genocide want donald trump to win.
Which candidate are they planning to vote for that has a chance of winning?
personally I’m planning to vote for cornel west but Jill Stein can still win me back
It’s not obvious?
right
Opposition to genocide is an indicator that someone wants Trump to win?
If you’re not skeptical of single issue leftists, then you should be more skeptical in general.
We know that there was a LOT of foreign astroturfing in 2016. And 2020. 2024 will likely repeat this trend, but armed with AI.
We’ve already seen one weak “it was AI and fake” argument from Roger Stone. Going to see a lot more of that this year, too.
So he careful who you trust, because they just might have an agenda.
That’s certainly a convenient way to dismiss people who don’t think Democrats should be supporting genocide.
It’s been great watching centrist Democrats cave and capitulate endlessly over the course of decades, only to find out that the single issue they will actually hold firm on is supporting the genocide they’ve always wanted.
The people who are the ones who complain with:
seem to be die hard Democrats. I do agree with them that there is definitely is an issue where the “non-Republican” vote is split into many sections. This leads to the issue where the Democrats are mad at other non-Republicans for “splitting the vote” and causing their party a tough time.
Lately, all Democrats do is cry about Trump while offering no solutions to the circumstances that put him in such a place in the first place. As if electing Biden stops Republicans from being Republicans? Medicare and Medicaid are being cut severely. Biden has been the president where scalping is finally lower and all he does is spend extra on killing.
As you have noticed, negotiation about genocide isn’t even an option with them. We have to elect their official or we get, wait for it, genocide and fascism? 😱
To Biden fans: If getting rid of Trump is your truly your biggest worry than vote for a progressive president with us!
tldr: The Republicans have become so unbelievable that the insanity and inability of Democrats to do anything is normal to many people.
Of course they don’t. But making wild accusations and insults is a lot easier than reexamining their positions.
How completely naive. Is this your first or second election? Your moral black and white approach is incompatible with the real world. A vote for a 3rd party candidate is essentially a vote for Trump in the way American elections work. That’s a fact.
This is as idiotic as the “Bernie or bust” people.
But since, like I said, making wild accusations and insults is easier than reexamining your positions, you have chosen to belittle me personally.
Let’s examine the centrist thought-terminating cliches one by one, shall we?
It’s not naive to notice that centrists sling abuse when their positions are challenged from the left. It’s all they do when they know they’re wrong. Supporting genocide is wrong, by the way. I have to tell you that because I’m not certain you’ve ever considered that it might be undesirable.
This one is neat because not only does it contain the ageist assumption that anyone younger than the speaker must be wrong, it’s also gaslighting.
This is now the fourth time in this thread that I’ve had to clarify that I’m voting for Biden, because centrist Democrats immediately assume that any condemnation of his support for genocide is advocacy for not voting, voting third party, or voting for Trump. He still shouldn’t be supporting genocide. He still needs to stop. He still cannot expect the votes of anyone for whom his support for genocide is a dealbreaker until he ceases his support.
“He still cannot expect the votes of anyone for whom his support for genocide is a dealbreaker until he ceases his support.”
And my point is that those people would be foolish in throwing away their votes. If Trump wins, it’ll be even worse for everyone involved. The only way to make changes in this two party system is to make sure the current extreme right wing Republican Party falls apart, forcing them to the center. This would allow the democrats to shift back to the left as they should be. Having our choices as a literal dictator and a very centrist Democrat are not great choices.
Foolish or not, they exist. If Biden wants their votes, he cannot continue to support genocide.
And no, that wasn’t your point. It might be your point now, but that’s not what you led with. Your initial replies to me were all baseless accusations, incorrect assumptions, gaslighting and abuse. None of those are points.
And we do that by… supporting genocide?
If Biden doesn’t want people saying the he supports genocide, he should stop supporting genocide.
When a centrist Democrat breaks out the insults, it’s a surefire indicator they can’t defend their positions on their merits. And since genocide is indefensible, insults are all centrists have. Not that they’ve ever had much else.
If your world is that black and white, you’re part of the problem.
If you are willing to look the other way while the de facto head of your party is enabling genocide, you’re not in a position to lecture.
I feel like genocide is pretty black and white, but if you wanna play in the ‘grey area’ of genocide that’s your prerogative, just own it loud and proud.
It obviously goes without saying, but Biden does not support genocide.
He’s selling weapons to Netanyahu which are being used to commit genocide.
That’s supporting genocide.
The weapons are being used to remove Hamas. Its sickening seeing people stan hamas on here.
No one is defending Hamas when they say Israel is using too much explosive near too many civilians, you unnuanced pathetic worm of a loser.
People equate removing Hamas with genocide. Its disgusting
No, people equate what Israel is doing to “remove Hamas”, and what Israel is doing is indeed disgusting.
Notice how calling what Israel is doing digusting in no way defends or endorses what Hamas did or does. What’s digusting is the complete lack of care towards civilians. To the point where “genocide” becomes an actual, valid (and obvious) question when Israel has killed multiple times more civilians than Hamas could dream of. If you want to drag Hamas infront of some international court too, be my guest: I’m not on their side, either.
That is how you remove Hamas, unfortunately it is the path Hamas has chosen.
That’s what Netanyahu claims. But much of Hamas leadership is not in Gaza. He cannot accomplish his stated goal of wiping out Hamas by attacking Gaza. But he can kill a lot of Palestinians that way.
I’m curious.
Do you think he’s not supporting Israel in their genocide of Palestinians, or do you believe Israel is not committing genocide?
Guess im not able to answer this question.
I fully support removing Hamas.
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Wrong and wrong. Wow, you must be a terrible person to deny the death of tens of thousands of innocents or their innocence.
Removed for genocide denial.
It might be more accurate to say that he (or any other President) does not support genocide, as long as it does not go against American interests.
Unfortunately.
“I have serious objections to American foreign policy not being aggressive enough against genocide even when committed by geopolitical allies.”
“Let me take the exact course of action that will put power into the hands that gave the particular genocidal state I’m ostensibly so upset with at this moment the Golan Heights, West Jerusalem, and significant chunks of the West Bank.”
“I am a very smart person!”
Centrist Democrats become very angry at the assertion that Biden should not be supporting genocide.
I’m voting for Biden.
>I’m voting for Biden.
you don’t need to tell him that. tell him your vote depends on fulfilling all your agenda items then vote quietly.
I mean, it doesn’t matter how many times I say it.
Centrist Democrats see criticism of Biden and immediately start thinking of how to dismiss or abuse the critic. The more valid the criticism is, the more vitriolic centrists become. Just watch. At least one of them will ignore that I said I’m voting for Biden and act like I’m not voting or voting for Trump.
this is a strawman
Yes, FFS. I am so tired of people falling for that garbage.
Whoa people are mad that their president is funding a genocide?? :0
Smh they should just stfu and vote. Who cares about foreigners dying
Trump didn’t care about US citizens dying, or did he apologize for fucking up his covid response yet?
Trump is a fascist piece of shit.
Biden is not, and he should not be supporting a genocide.
Trump is a fascist piece of shit
Biden is a zionist piece of shit
Lmao did you think I was suggesting he’s somehow better?
I just find it funny that Americans pretend like their bourgeois “democracy” isn’t just a poorly veiled oligarchy where you get to “choose” between the genocidal zionazi party and the fascist party.
Neither of whom give a fuck about the working class, though one is a bit better at pretending like they do.
One side is clearly better unless you do false equivalence, look at the mortality rate of mothers in states with abortion bans and without etc.
I know this is not as edgy of a take as your both sides cuntery but there is clearly a better and worse choice for the US regardless what kind of zionazi epic words you want to use from your basement setup.
It’s not like Americans don’t know their system is broken, but it’s not like they can fix it one day to the next, they have an election coming up where they have to choose between a shit candidate and a straight up fascist who tried to overthrow their election
Yeah I do agree people should probably still vote for the genocide party, as long as they’re organizing outside the system and building class consciousness to eventually overthrow it.
Just that they shouldn’t pretend like they’re not voting for a genocidal zionazi.
Are “genocide” and “nazi” also “epic words”? It conveys the fact that Biden is a zionist and a nazi quite well, no? Specially when I’ve linked him admitting he is one.
He’s backing Israel because it’s what they’ve always done. It’s a strategic alliance. It’s Nathan yahoo dropping bombs on cities
Is that why Biden is such an ardent zionist?
People trying to blame one guy for everything wrong instead of blaming the capitalist system that necessitates supporting a genocidal colony for profit and expansion in the first place will never not be funny.
Take “Nathan yahoo” out of power; not much will change until Palestine is decolonized against US and Europe’s capitalist interests; i.e the basic material conditions for this conflict happening in the first place are addressed.
Correct, it serves to continue to destabilize the middle east to slow down opposition to western imperialism by not letting the region unite.
How is what Americans pretend to do relevant here?
Lmao, did you think I am American?
Ah sorry, were we talking about African elections?
When did I say you were?
Oh so you just went on some rant about Americans as a reply to me even though it’s not relevant at all, gotcha
Yeah sorry I thought we were talking about American elections for a second there
I think they’re suggesting that what regular Americans think doesn’t actually affect the results of their “democracy” so it’s not actually relevant. So ig they do agree with you
But you do get how it is clear to everyone that you thought you were talking to an American otherwise your reply makes no sense?
Unless you don’t get it, in which case sorry for your affliction.
You’re part of the problem.
Which problem? But I highly doubt it
Lemmy needs to fricking understand that saying ‘Biden supports genocide’ IS NOT the same as ‘vote for Trump’, if he is committing an atrocity, he is gonna get called out by any sane person, I agree Trump is infinitely worse, but that doesn’t make Biden good, the American electoral system needs a reform but until then, you have to keep electing the lesser evil, but it isn’t equal to good
Lemmy’s centrists already understand this. But since they can’t defend support for genocide because it’s indefensible, they have to attack the person saying it with the standard litany of false assumptions, wild accusations, condescension, gaslighting and overt abuse.
That’s what bugs me the most, instead of saying that ‘biden sucks, but we have no other option’, they are saying ‘You are dumb/Astroturfing and whatever’ Biden is a piece of shit and I am gonna say it, but that doesn’t make me a Fascist
VOTE FOR BIDEN, just to be on the safe side
Now if that ain’t the pot calling the kettle black…
We should not be afraid to speak out against morally unjustifiable support for the mass killing of innocent civillians in our name, and with our tax money. That is the reality of the situation, and it is wrong. It will always be wrong regardless of who is doing the killing.
You thinking you have the more enlightened position simply because you are willing to carte blanche accept this behavior or foreign policy position from the candidate that will be better for the United States doesn’t make you a genius, it makes you self-rigtheous and self-centered. Real innocent people are really dying, and your ability to shrug that off in such a smug, self-satisfied way is truly appalling.
We absolutely should be speaking out against the genocide in Gaza and the US role in it. It is horrific. And I cannot shrug it off in good conscience.
I also intend to take action to prevent things getting worse via Trump being elected again. It is possible to do both.
What I cannot fathom is the same handful of users saying over and over how they cannot vote for Biden in good conscience while refusing to acknowledge that by doing so they are effectively permitting Trump to take office–and that such an outcome will be worse for gaza and worse in many other ways. These are the same folks that somehow don’t see how Republicans getting in power will significantly damage our democracy more than any time in the last half century.
Their inflexibility and refusal to genuinely engage on the topic reminds me an awful lot of the rampant astroturfing on Reddit back when. It gets exhausting seeing the same inane bullshit talking points over and over.
I can definitely appreciate that, but I’m not one of them.
Some people won’t pull the lever to divert the trolley.
I will, but I don’t think Dudley Do-Right is justified in tying people to the tracks just because Snidely Whiplash does.
This really isn’t at all what he said, and is an extremely dishonest thing to post.
You complain that your comments fall on deaf ears, but when you accuse people of things that are blatant lies, what do you expect?
It certainly was implied though.
No it wasn’t, not even in the least. It’s absolutely dishonest to pretend that’s what it was.
Go after him for what he actually said instead of making up things to be angry about.
Look, I don’t agree with you. I found what the OP said to be smug and self-satisfying as I said. I also found it to be pointedly critical towards anybody pointing out that Joe Biden has a blind spot in supporting Israel’s unethical campaign against Palestinians.
You want to ignore that element, or you don’t see it that way. That’s your prerogative, but don’t call me dishonest because I’m not being dishonest. There’s a difference between legitimate disagreement and dishonesty.
Look at the text you wrote, and the parts that I bolded.
There is a difference between legitimate disagreement and dishonesty.
Pretending that OP is giving carte blanche to genocide or shrugging that off is an outright lie. Accusing them of anything else based on that lie is also dishonest.
You either cannot or will not admit the hypocrisy of OP being hyper-critical and condensending towards people who are upset about the immoral support that is being given to kill innocent civillians, and then trying to bully them for it.
Whichever it happens to be, I no longer give a shit. Therfore, we are at an impasse. So, I’m done arguing with you as it is a waste of time. It’s been real, it’s been fun, but it ain’t been real fun ✌️
See, I might have cared about OP’s post being hypocritical or condescending. But then you went and posted something so outrageously dishonest, and when it was pointed out instead of owning up to your mistake and trying to do better, you doubled down on it and got pissy. But since you don’t care, I guess that’s where we end it.
You’ve just said it better than I’ve seen or said.
Thanks, but I expect my comment will mostly fall on deaf ears. I find that to be both sad, and yet entirely expected.
I will vote for Joe Biden because it is the only logical thing to do to save our democracy in the immediate term, and it is in my own self-interest. But I am also fully aware of the false dichotomy we are faced with when it comes to the support for Israel, the killing of innocent people with our tax dollars in the name of a “holy crusade” I don’t believe in, and I refuse to turn a blind eye to that simply because it is psychologically convenient.
Maybe it’s enough to say it