If “your man card can be revoked” then you understand that gender is performative and conditional.
You would think that, wouldn’t you?
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I understand that gender is made up and doesn’t matter. There is nothing girly or manly.
For some the optionality of it is less important than the notion that if it’s performative, you can be bad at it and therefore make yourself an acceptable target for abuse, and besides that the idea that some roles can be restricted to only those with a certain set of physical characteristics is deeply ingrained in many, be that in terms gender, career, or what have you.
In fact words all those words are a bunch of gibberish and neither the world nor reality works like that. I can just question the vague and often circular premises of that argument and we’re back to square zero.
Not against the sentiment, but you’re never going to get anywhere with that pseudoacademic bullshit.
Edit: hahaha just keep proving my point. You’re the same as them- dogmatic fanatics with no arguments that hold up for shit.
Cringe, you’re not even a good anarchist.
Sooo what if a dude just decides to act like, dress like, and call themselves like a girl? Why would they not be allowed to do that? What about the laws of the universe takes away their agency to do that?
Is this the most terminally online possible way of saying “gender is a social construct and I’m a gender abolitionist”?
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I’m entirely for gender abolitionism, but you really need to find some better rhetoric. “Cope and seethe, your arguments are shit” won’t work on most people
Which words are you struggling with?
Just can’t win with some people. And that’s ok, life isn’t about impressing everyone - anyone who tries gets exhausted real fast.
The only way to live life without pissing somebody off is by not doing anything worth doing.
And then you piss somebody off for not doing anything.
And it’s the same person arguing with OP.
Has my therapist been talking to you?
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Truly. Thanks for being a decent human being.
Hey that’s for real man
So what you’re saying is, it will involve being painted, no matter what?
Exactly. We all know that princess or army dude are the only two choices. /s
I want a daughter that wants to be a princess army dude!
Look man there was a wholesale offer on body paint and momma didn’t raise no quitter
If enough of us behave girly, it’s no longer girly.
This is why I like it when I see men wear skirts/kilts, wear eyeliner and/or paint their nails. It’s not something I’m into but I think it’s cool when I see it.
Ngl it’s also just because femboys are hot.
That and that painted nails can look good on anyone
Sure, but not every guy who wears the stuff they mentioned is a femboy
True, but there is significant overlap.
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Is it tho? Being gay is liking other men. Why must those things be feminine things? Who decided? Warriors wore war paint. Now covering your face in whatever you like is for women. Pink used to be a boy’s color. Lesley was a boy’s name. We’re all just people doing shit.
The instant I saw this picture, I thought of the Parks and Rec scene:
“That’s not really the attitude I expect from an award winner.”
“Everything I do is the attitude of an award winner, because I have won an award.”That should be the case for the picture “Everything I do is manly because I am a man.” And the same for the person you are responding to “Everything I do is gay/straight/other because I am gay/straight/other.” That one part of someone’s identity has no bearing on defining the rest of them - ie, being gay means that he’s attracted to men but doesn’t define what he wears, how he acts, etc.
High-heeled shoes were invented in Persia for cavalrymen and later used by sharpshooters. Men wear flowing cloth garments like skirts/dresses in many extant cultures. Men used to play all of the female roles in Western plays, in full clothing and makeup. Men have been removing and shaping body hair since the ancient Egyptians, Romans and Greeks. Even as recently as the 1970s men would wear cropped tops and short-shorts.
There are so many examples to deconstruct things that we view as feminine or masculine as being entirely arbitrary, culturally-locked and era specific. It’s all socially constructed, and therefore can be deconstructed - but only if you’re willing or able to engage in reflection.
Men doing feminine things doesn’t mean anything about who they are attracted to.
You are conflating two very different things. About half of the gay men I’ve known were fairly or very masculine, they just were attracted to men. And I’ve known plenty of straight guys that ranged from feminine to downright flamboyant. The way you tell if someone likes men or not is either if they tell you or flirt with you, and if they’re a man, then they are gay (or bi or whatever non-strictly-straight flavor).
Incidentally, most of the (non-trans) men I’ve known that were feminine or flamboyant were artists of some flavor, which tend to be a group with less inhibitions, so I would guess there are plenty of non-artist men that would show more femininity if they felt more comfortable with doing so.
Nope, it’s more common with those groups but gay men are into other men, what they do is unrelated. Goth is a whole thing as is Scottish. And trans is not identifying with the sex you were assigned at birth. Part of the reason why these groups are more likely to do these things is because of those assumptions. If a straight cis man just feels like he likes the way he looks better dressed like that that’s cool and while people may make assumptions they aren’t necessarily true.
Anyone can wear makeup or nail polish or wear a skirt, doesn’t say anything about their sexuality. Nor do all gay men do those things (I’d hazard that most don’t).
Think of it this way…
You’re the only person on earth. Does your gender matter anymore? Hair colour or length? Cock or boob size? What you put on your face or wear? Whether you like sewing, math, fishing, dancing, or frolicking through a field? No one’s there. You don’t have an identity because you’re never being identified by anyone. You’re not goth, gay, feminine, trans, or Scottish—you don’t know what those things are and actually never will because they won’t be invented. I mean, you could invent them by some astronomically improbably chance, but how, why, and what for? They’re all made up things along with all the socially expected tropes that come with those “identities”.
So what you perceive as “gay” is just nothing for a lot of people. They wouldn’t have considered it, nor would care, you’d be struggling to hold their attention as you tried to explain it and they’d forget it in moments anyway. These people say “I am me”, not “I am a…”
Some of those things wouldn’t exist anymore but others while the words and grouping may not the concept they represent would. I am gay, not because society puts me in that box, but because society has drawn a box around where I sit and given it the label gay. If I were the only person I would still crave the touch of another woman and not of a man. I may not feel insecure about the size of my breasts but I’d be uncomfortable if I didn’t have them.
It’s only gay if you kiss a guy and like it
By definition.
I’ve had that discussion before.
Gender roles, and thus gender presentation, are cultural for the most part. Some are common enough to multiple cultures that it approaches being just human culture.
But even in western (us, canada, europe) cultures, there have been periods where the presentation of masculinity would be considered feminine in other eras. So gender roles & presentation aren’t fixed in a given culture.
If I, regardless of what my genitals are, present as a man, then I am effectively the same as whatever a man is in my culture. If that also includes taking on the gender roles of “man”, then that’s another layer.
However, this also means that when enough men shift their presentation and roles, anyone holding to the previous roles and presentation are now “less” a man in the cultural sense. It really, truly is a majority rules situation, and the minority are what get relabeled (usually).
The more men that reject an arbitrary paradigm of masculinity, the more we shift to an open, loose definition of what is and isn’t masculine, with the eventual possibility that gender becomes so loose in definition that masculine and feminine become irrelevant terms, if the labels also lose relevance to the majority. And I believe that if enough people reject fixed gender paradigms, the terms would inevitably cease to matter.
I mean, we’ve already started to add qualifiers. We have traditional gender roles as a specific thing as separate from current gender roles.
This isn’t to deny that hormones and genetics will push people into behaviors that are linked to gender because they’re mostly linked to sex. But even with those pressures, we usually have room how we express those behaviors.
It’s why I always tell folks, particularly younger folks, to not worry much about labels. Be who you are, as long as who you are isn’t a douche, and you’ll eventually find the labels that feel right. And there’s a good chance you’ll end up shifting your self over time anyway, which is fine. As long as you don’t fixate on labels as defining the person, the self, you can freely shift labels as the self shifts. It’s when you pick a label and think that you have to fit it in all ways, forever, that you run into trouble.
So, fuck yeah. If you feel “girly”, be girly. Enjoy that shit. Be your best self. It’ll eventually work out :)
Exactly. I think labels are useful as communication tools, but they’re an active hindrance to self exploration. One of the greatest things I ever did for myself was completely setting them aside when exploring my gender until I knew what I wanted. It was a lot easier to run off a checklist of options than to sort through a variety of labels, even when I fell solidly into some labels.
It’s often time better to not just argue with these asshats. Waste of your time and energy while achieving less than a dog barking at a tree.
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Ok but also you aren’t nonbinary just because you’re an effeminate man. They’re different things entirely
You can’t gatekeep being nonbinary. Not unless you’re prepared to define it explicitly, which will exclude many people - and not everyone will agree with your definition either.
I said just because. Not that effeminate men aren’t capable of being nonbinary, merely that it is not sufficient (or necessary for that matter). You have to like actually not identify as entirely a man.
But it’s not my place to fight I’m very much in the binary side of transness.
Whose authority says it’s not sufficient? If they say they are nonbinary, they are nonbinary.
OP means “don’t assume someone is non-binary because they are an effeminate man” and not “you aren’t non-binary just because you are an effeminate man”
I suppose that’s possible, but the thing you say OP is not saying is literally a quote. So at best it’s worded poorly.
Except they literally said that
Their intent with the message was clearly less-than-literal. They tried to clear things up in replies but failed. I think it is quite clear that they meant no one any harm, and simply failed to convey their idea properly.
The comment itself should be edited to reflect the original intent, then. People can’t just say stupid and hyperbolic things and not be held socially accountable.
This is a miscommunication, you two are not really in disagreement as far as I can see. If someone {presents as an effeminate man} AND {they say they’re non-binary} => {they are non-binary}. However if someone {presents as an effeminate man} AND does NOT {say they’re non-binary}… Then it’s not sufficient.
Nothing is anything, did people forget that these are all completely nonsense words with no connection to reality? No matter how scientific and very legal very cool semantic concepts you come up with it won’t change reality one fucking bit. Non binary… Nobody gives a FUCK, it has no correlation with ANYTHING in the Universe, it’s just another shit pseudophilosophical concept being shoved down everyone’s throat like it’s some kind of objective reality.
It’s metaphysics, and “you people” (yes, YOU PEOPLE) suck at it.
The shit you find in your belly hole while navel gazing is not worth shit.
Nobody gives a fuck that you aren’t capable of being cognizant of the full gamut of reality that exists in human physiology. Just because you want something to be true doesn’t make it real just because you don’t have the capacity for comprehension. The world isn’t simple just because you’re too stupid to understand it.
Are you transphobic as well? I’m genuinely curious. Or does transgender count as “real” in your view because it does have a far more strict definition?
I thought they were gender abolitionist, but I… I’m not too sure anymore.
I am too tbh, I think the weird thing is enbies to me are inherently a sort of political commentary through identity on gender and our relationship to it, unless I’m just wrong.
I think the whole issue is somewhat separate from trans people who mostly are just people with a mental neurodivergence/disorder called gender dysphoria that causes them anguish and is caused by their body’s sex and their brain’s innate sense of sex don’t agree and therefore they seek medical treatments like HRT and surgeries and documentation changes to help them perceive themselves and be perceived by others as members of the target sex as much as is humanly possible.
Their political angle is to fight for access to said healthcare to be more common, available through insurance, be taken more seriously with faster wait times and be available to younger people since the effectiveness of a lot of the treatments like hormones depends on the age you start.
Conflating the two imo is kinda like commentary on attention spans relating to social media and the actual neurological disorder ADHD.
I think it’s a little “exotic” to call my existence an inherent political commentary. It’s certainly something that can be used to inform political debate, but I believe saying that it’s inherent misses the point that our existence is only political because it’s politicized
And for what it’s worth, gender dysphoria is also something experienced by nonbinary folks, but it isn’t a requirement of being trans or non-binary either. Some people just don’t experience it and requiring it as a clinical diagnosis is part of the medicalization of our and trans people’s existence as well.
I don’t really know how to finish this lol, I agree with the rest of your comment. I just wanted to correct what I feel are common misconceptions.
Maybe dysphoria isn’t a precondition to being trans, but I don’t get how.
What I don’t understand is then why transition? If you’re fine as you are, why the hassle? Just as fashion/identity? Body modding for lulz? Nothing wrong with either but it’s very removed from my XP.
I only transitioned because I needed to, to me GD is a curse treated with medication and surgeries I couldn’t live without and that’s basically all that being trans is to me. The identity of being trans is defined to me by dysphoria - mental torture associated with one’s birth sex fixed by becoming the other, or as close as possible with current tech.
Also how does enby dysphoria work? Do you just feel dysphoric about a mix of male and female traits? That’s wild if true.
Telling someone whose gender doesn’t conform to the male/female binary view of gender that the term non-binary is a “shit pseudophilosophical concept” that “has no connection to reality” fucking sucks. Either you don’t recognize gender outside of the binary, or you just think these people don’t deserve a way to express and talk about their gender. Either way it’s a garbage take.
Even tho im a cishet male i can absolutely imagine how freaking annoying these people could be.
Define ‘these people’?
People who believe in strict gender roles and the inability to traverse them?
Sounds like you’re simplifying the issue just as much as they do.
It’s…not that complex. It’s a meme, not a college dissertation. Just laugh at the dumb people.
What do you mean … you people?..
Sorry, I thought you meant the letter U, as in the U People. I’ve been looking for them for a long time. They live underground, you see, that’s where the U comes from. They’re hard to find! But if you find one, it is tasty!
your username is giving me ptsd
Thanks, I get that a lot. The previous owner must have been quite the character haha
in case you’re not joking and actually don’t know: AwkwardTurtle was one of the most universally disliked reddit mods, she modded a vast number of popular servers, and often banned people on a whim. There were multiple dramas surrounding her
Not joking, actually unaware of this mod until I took up the username here randomly haha.
I’ve never been a mod for anything :p
Thank you! Finally getting the respect U-people deserve instead of the derogatory term many use that labels us all as not-quite-human cannibals.
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Homophobes are cute. Me and my homies only jerk off to homophobes. Just like those old WW2 vets that invented the gay leather scene. Except now the kink is to dress up as an Ultra-American instead of a German nazi. I got a 1776 shirt literally just to fuck with.
(One part humor, one part truth, one part bullshit. If my lame comedy makes anyone angry they aren’t living the life they should be. Treat yo self.)
If nostalgia ever kicks in, German is my first language :P
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As a leather woman I do want people to know how the community actually formed. Motorcycling was a socially acceptable hobby and served two purposes: it as a hobby has just always been useful for men dealing with ptsd who aren’t comfortable with therapy (it’s worse than therapy but it’s better than nothing and it’s not like 1948 Americans were ready to hear that John can’t process that he killed someone and that he fell in love with a soldier who died in his arms), and it served as a convenient excuse to get out of town into the middle of nowhere where nobody will see gay sadomasochism unless they came to see it.
It’s never been a parody of the right, but it has had parodies of what was expected of them. The Nazi fetishists were different folks usually. Though we did have people wearing parodies of us uniforms
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This has gotta be the meme that best sums up the situation lmao
What makes a man, is it the power in his hands?
Is it his quest for glory?
Gowron eyes intensify
Give it all you got, to fight to the top.
So we can know your story!
What makes a man?
Is it the woman in his arms?
Just 'cause she has big titties?
Or is it the way, he fights every day?
…No, it’s probably the tittiessuch wisdom in this song
Do yourself a favor and watch this 16 year old youtube vid.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2hRik8OH8&pp=ygUWY2hpbnMgd2hhdCBtYWtlcyBhIG1hbg%3D%3D
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://m.piped.video/watch?v=_O2hRik8OH8&pp=ygUWY2hpbnMgd2hhdCBtYWtlcyBhIG1hbg%3D%3D
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I did not need to look at that. But the audio was worth it
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Ha. Gay.
Ahahahahbahaa
Then you have another person calling them trans
As an amab man with long hair and emotions that is frequently misgenedered (even with facial hair) yall are down voting something that is far too true
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You seem very angry. Is everything alright in your life? I’m sorry that you’re so upset by other people being happy :(
Enjoy punching holes in your mom’s drywall.
Yeah, the “can always tell” crowd. AKA “I don’t think this person is attractive enough to be cis.”
The scientist in me is sooo tempted by the idea of setting up a website where people have to classify pictures of cis and well-passing trans people by AGAB to really drive the point home that no, those fuckers CANNOT tell. They can usually only tell when the person in question is in the progress of medical transition which is an instance of “no shit Sherlock, why do you think we want to get this done as quickly as possible”. And yes, Enbys are a bit of a different story, but even a lot of them pass very well as the opposite of their AGAB, even though they often don’t even identify as that.
The big issue with this is that the vast majority of people making those kinds of statements are incapable of thinking rationally and instead just continue being bigots.
Idk dude I ngl I look like a long-haired Charlie Puth (to the point where different people have told me that I look like him on the same night lmao) but somehow people still get the wrong idea lol.
It’s funny how it only seems to be a problem in on direction. Boyish women or ‘tomboys’ are applauded in a lot of circles.
Historically less so. Even back in the 80s lots of girls i knew and thought of as tom boys. Where forced to dress and act girlie by there parents. Further back you go more limits there were.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roosevelt_Longworth
“I can either run the country or I can attend to Alice, but I cannot possibly do both”
Chastised by some, loved by others, it depends a lot on the audience. I think overall though women have been given more a pass, pegged as ‘willfull’ or ‘impetuous’ where as with men it’s treated as a flaw that they should be shunned for.
Think of the differing ways that daddy’s girl and mamma’s boy are perceived to get to what I mean.
Then as a man, I choose to act like a girly-Man©. See? Has Man© and that symbol makes it official. That means I can do anything <‘ronswanson meme.jpg’> Checkmate. Easy victory
A real Girly-Man wears blue armor with white toilet seats painted on the shoulders. Rowboat.
Men can behave girly.
