“In the entire dataset, 29% of men said they never approached a woman in person before. 27% said it had been more than one year. This was larger for men in the age 18-25 group: 45% had never approached a woman in person,” according to the study.
A majority of single males surveyed reported fear as the main reason they do not approach women for dates in person. Fear of rejection and fear of social consequences were the two most common responses.
The data highlights a growing concern in the United States and abroad — loneliness. A 2023 report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found that almost half of U.S. adults report “measurable levels of loneliness.”
It’s interesting to say the least. It seems as though the social repercussions and rejection are the most profound reason. While the fear of rejection is easy enough to digest. But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.
From what I understand it’s the fear of being viewed as a creep to approach a woman out of the blue. Which to me, is reasonable enough. But I don’t think I have ever heard my old man or anyone of his generation bringing this to the table.
Yet I do remember asking my friends about picking up hints and whether or not men are really that bad at it. And most them saying the just don’t want to risk misinterpreting it.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made that approaching women like this, has fallen out of social fashion. What do you guys think?
p.s. I hope this is casual enough of a conversation. I kinda screwed up my last one, I admit.
Edit: Here is a more detailed paper on the survey for those that are interested
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A female friend once said that, at least in the US, men are often viewed by women as being either creepy or not creepy. The not creepy men have learned to avoid women due to the creepy men, so the only men who would approach a woman must be creepy.
Make of that, and its consequences, what you will.
Well what I make of that is, that it’s (perhaps) an out of date social norm ;)
It would seem so.
That’s a really good way of putting it.
I think its more that ‘creepy’ is just a less blunt measure of attraction.
I mean sure there are legit creepy people out there but that’s a lot rarer than people believe (because the internet steeps us in creepy people all day).
I’ve seen good looking chuds do the most stalkerish of shit and get away with it, I’ve seen well meaning ugly people treated like shit at every turn.
There are asexual men too. And asexual women.
Not creepy, aka attractive/ with money.
It’s such a tired line. You know what everyone finds creepy, people who don’t respect your personal boundaries and don’t understand basic concepts of consent. Neither Money nor looks can make up for that in the slightest.
That’s simply not true, the golden boy trust fund blonde and blue eyed track star at my HS cornered and raped two students his first year, on school campus.
Nothing serious happened, no one ‘othered’ him, the language always framed him as ‘just a guy who got too horny, like boys do’.
He probably had done more but after the first two came forward and not even the cops got involved, all the rest of the girls clammed up.
Oh yeah it can. You see it everywhere in the news.
I would tend to disagree quite a bit. Most of the couples I know say they chose each other because they felt most at home with each other.
Do you think they would have got together if they weren’t physically attracted to each other? Cmon.
Some of them, yes. There’s more than one kind of attraction in the world, it’s not just physical attraction or wealth attraction. There’s mental attraction, vocal attraction, attraction based on having been one’s deep friend in the past, attraction based on shared interests, etc. Physical attraction actually didn’t used to be all the rage as much as it is now.
Do you think you could have sex with a ugly dude face on top of yours, breathing heavily? I could not do that with a ugly girl. If people get together usually they can at the very least see some attractive physical traits in their partner. No wonder once almost everyone gets uglier with age they divorce.
But I don’t even have that.
If you can’t think outside the box, you’re not going to succeed, because outside the box is where the goal is. There is more to a partnership than that, otherwise such a thing would be relatively pointless.
(Also we should steer clear from NSFW discussions here.)
Not creepy, aka doesn’t say stuff like this.
I’ve read all your comments so far and this combined with the ‘deserve love and cuddles’ shit… You dropped your mask buddy
I feel like this whole conversation is so alienating. You talk to people. You interact with people. Some of them are women. Some of the women you interact with are really cool. Maybe you find them attractive. So you say, “hey I know this is kind of a random encounter, but I’d like to see you again. Is there any chance we could hang out and go see a movie or get dinner or something?”
You aren’t making first contact with an alien species. It’s just people. Someone you’re interested in, who might be interested in you. Don’t bring a whole lot of baggage to the dance, just see if they want to go out. Have something in mind to do.
Maybe that’s how you could spend your off time. Engage in something creative. Go to shows or plays or something that you do regularly that you can invite them along on. Listen to live music at some venue. Take an art class. Book club. Ping pong lessons. Go to a pokémon tournament if that’s your bag. Just something that represents your interests that you can invite them along to, and if they don’t want to come, ask what they want to do.
Perhaps you’re right. Maybe we are dissecting a casual social affair a little too much. But then again I do wonder, what do you make of the 45% statistic?
I think the survey is talking about talking to strangers, which is always difficult. I’ve been a salesman several different times, including car sales, and it’s hard to connect with a stranger. But it isn’t a skill one needs to learn.
What would make you approach a woman you’ve never met or spoken to? It could only be her looks, and she knows that. So instantly you’re shallow, to say the least.
Don’t do that. Just get involved in things that are coed in life; work, church, clubs, theater, classes, you name it. Natural socialization. Be yourself. Have fun doing things, then look around at the people having fun with you. And just talk to them.
Let’s stop idolizing pick-up artists. Because they ARE creepy.
https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/
I did some digging and according to this. 77% of women 18 - 30 want to be approached more. I don’t know about pick up artists. But I wonder if a respectful way of approaching women could in fact be taught.
Maybe. I’m not in that age group and the women that age who I know do not express any desire to be approached randomly. But I think it’s always going to feel odd to be asked out by someone you don’t know, and maybe there’s a disconnect between who they might want to be doing the asking, and who is.
I will agree our society is missing both physical non-sexual connection (hugging, etc) and good conversation that might lead to connection, small talk is a skill not a talent. But the answer is NEVER to impose these things on an unwilling participant. So one of the skills that need to be taught is discernment or empathy - being aware of the people around you, reading the signals. Listening, not just talking in what you think is a generic respectful way.
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I’ve seen you on other posts here. I am going to be candid here. You need therapy. You have a very negative view of yourself, external locus of control, low self-worth, and low self-esteem.
Women aren’t some unique species with singular interests. They don’t all want a generic ass prince. Most women I have met simply want someone with similar interests, makes them feel wanted, and makes them feel important and valued. Having someone attractive is a plus, but most of that isn’t physical. The more emotionally attracted someone is to another the more physically attractive they perceive the person.
Note that NOTHING I said women want is dependent on what you have, how you look, or where you live. It’s ALL about how you treat them.
If you treat them like all they want is some generic prince or fuck boy, why should they want to get to know you? Just treat them like a normal person that has their own interests and desires and not that of some “all women” generalizations you keep repeating.
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Dude, that’s the low self-worth speaking. You don’t even know if others will find you interesting so you don’t even try. Plenty of women like video games. Plenty of women like music. And they like to talk about those games and the music that enjoy.
And you’re right, making them feel wanted isn’t enough. Appreciated, valued, and comfortable and also needed. And not just physically wanted. You want them around because you enjoy their company and who they are.
Whoa, how is it shallow to be attracted to someone’s looks? What a weird take. We’re not doing married at first sight.
Yeah, there’s something about a person you find attractive and you want to get to know them better.
You’ve found your fun circle and talked them up and down. Now how do I pick one to pursue romantically? Can’t do how attractive I find them because that’s apparently shallow. Do I try a random lottery? Or the order I first met them?
It’s shallow to be attracted to someone ONLY because of their looks. Which is what is happening when you approach a woman you’ve never met because you like her looks.
You have a fun circle… and you are going to “PICK ONE” to get involved romantically with?
My brother, that ain’t how it works.
It’s shallow to stay in a relationship with someone only because of their looks. You can be attracted to any adult for any reason despite what any sanctimonious third-party says. Maybe you are demisexual but you don’t get to prescribe propriety for other people anymore than heterosexuals do.
And, yes, that is how it works in most place when the conversation was and still remains about approaching women romantically. You say “hmm, this one vibes with me the most so I’ll try to date her exclusively”. Unless y’all agree to be polyamorous.
I’ll apologize if you were just throwing in a suggestion about how to just make friends into an unrelated topic.
But I’m losing motivation to continue.
That’s a shit take. If you don’t know the person and don’t have anyone that knows the person, that means you shouldn’t approach them?
It’s perfectly normal to find someone attractive. You can then learn to know the person and both can decide what to do of that relationship.
What is not acceptable is being insistent when the person says no, and breaching boundaries without getting consent.
Approach anyone you want. But if you’re cold calling you’ve got some hurdles to clear.
Agree. This kind of thing only ever seems to come up in regards to to heterosexual dating and it really imo diminishes the entire whole complex humans that are on both sides of the hypothetical interaction. You’re not talking to ~A Woman~* you’re talking to a person, who might or might not like you depending on 8374684 possible factors about the situation or their/your personality.
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If you don’t like anything that sounds like depression. Or just… I can’t say this nicely… Really boring? Why would I want to hang out with someone who has no interests , hobbies, or passions? Nevermind go on a date with them.
I dunno, my mother married a boring man for 11 years. Why not me? Then she re married another boring man, less responsible and with alcoholic problems. Again, why not me?
Was he boring to her? Were they happy?
Is what your parents had what you’re aiming for?
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So then he wasn’t boring to her and they ran into other issues…
No, my father always had been the same
Get this - if they don’t have similar interests it probably wasn’t going to work anyway.
If you don’t like anything, never go out, how would somebody every get to meet and know you? And I don’t mean go out partying or anything, I mean literally go out.
I dunno. But I can’t force myself to become something I don’t wanna be. What’s worse being a shut in or being miserable outside faking a smile when you’re suffering and cringing thinking “why I’m here?”
I went out to the park, movies, arcades alone for years. I’m done, if the world hates me this much then there’s nothing I can do about it.
It doesn’t sound like you hate going out, just being alone. Being out alone can suck, but the loneliness can’t be fixed without effort.
Those are things that you can do alone. Do some things that you CAN’T do alone. Interact with people. A league. A club. A help group. Anything that isn’t solitary.
It’s good to have an idea of what you’re doing when you’re talking to someone, other than “trying to get laid” lol.
Listen when others are talking to you (MEN & WOMEN! you need the practice) for something personal they’re sharing. Try to ask a short follow-up question that allows them to elaborate.
While they’re talking just say something innocuous like “okay” so they know your there but you’re not interrupting. Let them talk. Nobody lets other people talk these days. We pay therapists so that someone will listen to us.
You’ll be a breath of fresh air if you listen to people. Treat their story like a privilege, because it is. The more they say to you, the more trust they are investing in you. So be worthy of it. And don’t worry about the end result.
Getting laid is what happens when you’re focused on someone else, not yourself.
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PS. It’s okay to be boring, but don’t be bored when people are talking to you.
I am an existentialist. Existence precedes essence.
I believe meaning is created in the world, it’s something we must make. I do not believe meaning is provided for us.
According to Friedrich Nietzsche, “He who has a WHY to live can bear almost any HOW.” We must determine the WHY. For Victor Frankel in “Man’s Search For Meaning,” the why was to survive the Nazi death camp and be reunited with his wife who was in another death camp.
We all must have our WHY, or we drift aimlessly through life. But the good things is, we are not meant to FIND the WHY, we are meant to CREATE it.
things will get better again, my friend. keep your pride to yourself, if you’re too afraid to show it, but keep it anyways.
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You’re talking with people right now. That is all we’re saying - find a group of people and just talk.
Well, I think we’re people. Can never be sure.
Dude. Online interactions like these don’t count at all. Anonymously being here protect us all from harm. I don’t consider this a social activity at all. And it won’t affect my real life
the world hates me this much then there’s nothing I can do about it.
There’s a lot you can do about it, but you seem intent on not doing any of it.
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Why not? Why do you deserve friends and companionship without doing the slightest bit of work?
Loving someone requires effort already. I don’t ask anything else, I don’t ask you to like videogames or being into the music I like. I don’t ask you to be generically attractive or to drag you into knowing my family. Why should you do the same to me?
Who is this us you speak of? Do you have zero interests in life? Nothing that you like doing? If that is the case, that really does sound like depression and I hope you are able to get help for it
Women have been complaining in popular media for decades about random dudes approaching them and asking them out. How is it a surprise that the trend is dying out? It’s clearly something that most women don’t enjoy to begin with.
Ya it sounds like it’s at a good thing it’s falling out of fashion from what I’ve heard from women. The problem is that it just being replaced with dating apps, so we as a society just need to find something to replace it with that’s not so packed and sold lol.
There are plenty of environments where you can still meet potential romantic/sexual partners offline, and approaching people you don’t know is considered acceptable conduct.
The thing that’s dying out is hitting on women everywhere.
You just need the confidence and dedication to actually go out to bars or attend singles nights and meet people.
Apps are only the new norm if you decide that wagging your fingers back and forth is the maximum effort you’re willing to put in.
I can speak from personal experience only, but bars also don’t really tend to be the place go for that as much anymore either, women tend to want to go and have fun there and feel just as bothered by being hit on (again this is only my personal experience from myself and men/women in my life). My experience with singles nights is that it is predominantly men, by a wide margin and that puts the women that go in a bad spot again. I’m just really unsure of where the proper place is anymore. Outside of dating apps which even those seem to be more of an annoyance to people inundated with messages, it seems you just have to stumble across a new friend group and find someone there.
It feels like an overwhelming effort for both sides at this point and casual interactions are becoming increasingly rare
Have you ever tried going to a bar and talking to a woman like she’s a human being, instead of hitting on her?
I’m not sure what kind of person you think I am bud, but yes, I do know how to have healthy interactions with women. My original statement is still valid to my experiences. Most of my time spent at bars was with an SO and her friends since it’s not my scene. People go there mostly to have fun and hang out, usually with their friends. While somewhat open to random people interactions it’s still not what it used to be 10 years ago or even before then
How do you think they might respond to being approached by bears?
Don’t know how old your father is, but at least among Gen X women, creepy men absolutely have been part of the discussion. It just wasn’t a public discussion until much more recently. Hell, the fake phone number thing goes back to landlines.
We’re still at a point of significant cultural change in gender relations, and until an equilibrium point is reached, there’s going to be apprehension about approaching others. To that end, it’s important that we keep small gaffes made in good faith as social misdemeanors (to allow for opportunities to correct behavior) and not career-ending incidents. It only takes a quick browse of social media discussing one of these incidents to see why said apprehension exists.
That said, I still don’t think we’re having enough conversations about consent around positions of authority and social hierarchy in general. Too many people don’t understand that being nice to someone when you’re on the clock isn’t implied consent for continued interaction with that person off the clock. That’s the light stuff; it can go all the way to gross stories about cops and women. It all stems back to authority and power imbalance. This might be more of an issue in the US than elsewhere; I think ideals of “equality” and “social mobility” are so ingrained in our culture that some Americans don’t have the social intelligence around the very real stratification that exists at the workplace and elsewhere.
Fear of rejection is a whole other problem that likely stems from everyone having more anxiety now. I was around a bunch of people in their late teens/early 20’s a lot more than usual the past couple years and holy crap. I thought my social anxiety was bad. I don’t know how these kids are going to function.
OP didn’t really bring up trying to pick up your work colleagues, I think that’s pretty universally a bad idea, though it certainly happens. The risk of consequences is absolutely going to be high in a professional setting
Not just talking about work colleagues, also client or customer relationships.
I mean, clients and customers all fall under the same umbrella as work colleagues, they’re all professional relationships
I ended up marrying my work colleague. By the time we started dating I was already slated to leave the state for another gig in a couple months. Figured if it didn’t work out, I’d be completely out of the picture soon anyway. If it did work out… well a year of long distance turned into a marriage, so it really worked out.
That said I have a more corporate long term job now, so I’d certainly have to be a lot more socially careful if I were single trying to meet someone at work.
It still happens a lot here. And it’s no surprise considering how much time people are spending at work. A lot people just don’t have time for dating.
Ever since I was a young teen, I’ve been exposed to a lot of messaging about mean and harrassment and rape. I was already an extremely isolated kid, and it really drove me further away from women. I really didn’t want to be a creep or make someone uncomfortable, and already had major self-esteem issues, and it really screwed me up tbh. Even during college, the school was super condescending about telling men not to rape people, and it really made me ashamed to be male. 2nd year, I started dating someone, but I just couldn’t continue because I was so uncomfortable with it. I’m certainly an extreme case, but there is a lot of messaging out there affecting people, and not necessarily for the better. I’ve realized I’m trans since then, and apparently this is common in mtf people. In the end, I’m way more comfortable being with men, even though I’m generally less attracted to them physically in general. Anyways, I would LITERALLY NEVER approach a woman romantically in person, it has to be over a dating app of some sort where I know they’re looking for something romantic and we can be upfront about needs and wants. That or they have to be very assertive and unambiguous in person, which very weirdly has actually happened to me.
the exact same thing has happened to me.
went to school and the general social narrative was that “men are all bad people, we should avoid them altogether”, which, of course, is discrimination. The consequence is that you mostly intimidate sensitive guys that way, the guys that aren’t actually a problem. It definitely leads to a lot of mental health issues for young men, especially (later) mtf ones (as i’ve observed).
What we can do about this, I think, is the general strategies against discrimination (point it out, talk about it, etc.) and ask questions such as “she may be offended if i ask her out, but she also may be offended if i don’t ask her out” (girl not feeling pretty, wanting/needing attention, etc.).
Yup. Same exact problem I had growing up. I’m autistic and so I need social rules spelled out for me. The only rule that was explicitly taught to me was that you should never approach a woman unless she wants it. Of course, if you’re autistic, there’s no way of knowing if a woman wants you to approach her, so my reasoning was “okay, that must mean women will proposition guys that they are interested in, or otherwise make their intentions known”. But obviously that isn’t true either. I never fully got the hang of it and have only been lucky that dating apps somewhat streamline that process.
I think both the “would you rather run into a man or a bear in the woods?” question for women and the “would you rather be emotionally vulnerable with a woman or a tree?” question for men scream loud and clear why there isn’t much meeting in the middle on this issue.
Women are still living in a world that by and large treats women as property and rape as something that women should just get used to.
A woman in the US couldn’t have her own bank account until 1974.
Until 1993, marital rape wasn’t recognized at the Federal level, and only some states had laws against it.
So, up until just thirty-one years ago, raping your wife was cool and legal.
Women are watching politicians try to control their bodily autonomy by making abortion illegal, and the same people pushing that also happen to be pushing for an end to “no fault divorce” because they don’t like women having the choice of divorcing them.
Women have so many good reasons to have had it up to here with men…
Now, women aren’t responsible for men’s emotional well-being and men really should do more to support each other when it comes to being open and emotionally vulnerable, but the downside is that it means men, overall, generally feel like they can’t actually be open with women without it hurting their chances, romantically.
Much like it isn’t every individual black person’s job to educate every idiot white person they come in contact with, it’s not every woman’s job to educate every idiot man they come in contact with.
However, this impacts men who are just trying to find a footing and may grow into better people, given the opportunity. However, the attitude of that you’re not responsible for explaining leads to nobody explaining except… right-wing asshats who are pushing division and hate. So, because there aren’t left-wing men speaking to how to handle these issues and providing healthy in-gender support for other men, we’re leaving it all up to women to do all the educating, and I mean, I get it, they don’t want to, they’re kind of over it, and that’s probably why they’re pretty rude about it, to boot. And since they’re saying no and bowing out, that means young men are left to listen to voices like Andrew Tate.
I think both sides of this coin are doing each other a disservice. Women not having enough patience for men who could grow to be good men, and men not having enough self-reflection to realize that hanging your entire emotional stability on whether or not you are in a relationship is unhealthy, period.
I think both the “would you rather run into a man or a bear in the woods?” question for women and the “would you rather be emotionally vulnerable with a woman or a tree?” question for men scream loud and clear why there isn’t much meeting in the middle on this issue.
I totally forgot about that one. And you’re totally right! Seriously everything you’ve said here is an interesting take on the matter.
However, the attitude of that you’re not responsible for explaining leads to nobody explaining except… right-wing asshats who are pushing division and hate.
Would you say that perhaps an emphasis on social education (like in middle school or something) would be good first step to this? And not just to talk about what you shouldn’t do but also when you in fact CAN try and make a move.
Back in the day they had things like “etiquette schools” (I guess they still do) with a focus on politeness and manners.
Frankly, there can and should be a modern version of etiquette but focused on interpersonal relationships taught in school. The modern version would focus on things like consent, healthy emotional support structures, and healthy communication strategies.
School itself is supposed to be a place to “live and learn” as it were when forming relationships, but it basically has very little adult stewardship of those concepts.
School today is nightmare with everybody filming everybody. If you are a young person doing young person mistakes, it will probably filmed and put on the internet.
I can only speak from my experience because it is the only one I’ve lived, but being a young man with hormonal changes and no male role model in my life, my life would have been way harder today since I made many gaffes that a young man usually makes.
The only difference is that it wasn’t filmed and I had a chance to become better, instead of ridiculed by the whole world.
That can’t be a thing anymore, they would WOKE the shit out of it.
Who would’ve guessed! The “all men are horrible people” narrative is hurting non-horrible (the majority) men.
The problem with dating right now is that for centuries there was an order. Men were the dominant ones, and women were the submissive ones. In general, at least.
Then WWII happened, and all the men went overseas, and all the women were brought into the workplace.
Then the surviving men came back, and people tried to go back to what it was. They tried to have women go back to being home makers, and men go back to work.
But the toothpaste was out of the tube. You had a major societial shift, in a very short time, and you can’t go back like that.
So now women wanted to work, and men were expected to work. You wanna know why the 50s were so ecconomically strong? It’s because you had a two person income household in a one income per household society. Suddenly these people who grew up during the great depression, were now living in the strongest ecconomy in history. Prices needed a decade or two to catch up to the idea that women worked too.
This began to crack the foundation of the idea that men were the dominant ones because they worked. Well, now women worked too. So they had to find another way to go back to the way things were…but again, the toothpaste was out of the tube. The end result was that men increased the amount of rape through the 50s/60s/70s. Then in the 80s, women started fighting back on that front. I’m not saying they solved the issue, but prior to the 80s, there was zero resistance. Now there was.
Suddenly you could be sued at work for grabbing a womans ass. Or talking the wrong way. You could be fired, even from high end jobs.
The increase in resistance eventually lead to the mid 2010s where they overturned roe v wade. The pendulium had begun swinging the other way now. This is leading to more and more women being scared of men, because they don’t know how far this is going to go.
Now everyone has guns, the world for unrelated reasons is getting more and more divided and scared. And it doesn’t matter that actual crime rates are going down through the decades. Most people falsely believe crime is increasing. So they will act and feel accordingly. Add that to the fact that something like 90% of rape goes unreported, and even among the reported rapes, only 1% of cases even see jail time over a year.
So it becomes a toothless crime that rapists freely get away with. So women are preparing for a world where every man is out to hurt them. The same way police are trained to view every civilian as a threat.
And I used to say they were worried over nothing, until I saw how men that WEREN’T me treated women. It was a case of me being an introvert, not seeing the world around me. There very much is a problem with how men treat women, and there is also very much a problem with how women treat men. There’s also a problem with how men treat other men. And there’s a problem with how women treat women.
The whole concept of marriage is obsolete, yet it’s treated as the end goal of a relationship. Women are treated as baby ovens. Men are treated as bank accounts. And all of society is just toxic in everyway.
Because somewhere along the line, parents lost a sense of community, and teaching their children who to trust, and who not to. Instead they’re told not to trust any strangers. Well all that does is cripple their social skills when they get to kindergarten. Day 1, they’re surrounded by strangers. What are they supposed to do? Shut down, and have a room full of 30 kids not talking, not listening to the teacher?
I had a guy when I was 14 say he liked my hair. I’m not gay, but he was, so I politely told him I appriciate it, but also I’m not gay. He thought I was. At no point did I feel he was a threat, or creepy. He was just shooting his shot at a destined to fail attempt at flirting. Oh well, things go these ways sometimes. I knew I could trust he wouldn’t get violent.
But when I was 18, a guy in his 40s, who gave off some real men in black vibes, the guy in the overalls who was filled with bugs, he said “You suuure do got purrrdyyyy skiiiin”. And I knew NOT to trust this guy. He made my skin crawl, and I got out of there.
And thats what we’re not teaching kids today, because our parents didn’t teach it to us. How to learn WHO to trust, and what signs to look for. People think judging others is a bad thing. It’s not. It’s a nuetral thing. Its a skill that allows you to assess people.
Instead, we have a generation of people with no social skills, who feel that everyone from the other gender is out to get them. People list things like the ecconomy and threats of war as reasons people are having less kids now. I think it’s because people aren’t meeting. The traditional family is dead. All children now are accidents, which is why they wanted roe v wade overturned. To increase birthrates. Because republicans don’t care about families. They care about having wage slaves working the machines at low costs.
What people need to go back to is one person being in charge of the relationship, and one person being the caretaker. The genders on that don’t matter. You need a leader, and a supporter. And right now, everyones fighting to be the leader because they think it sounds cool.
Problem is, if you have two dominant types, all they do is fight, and eventually resent each other. If you have two submissive types, they just slowly drift apart and eventually the relationship falls apart.
But if you have one dominant leader type, and one (or more) submissive supporter types, you can have a healthy relationship that lasts.
The problem is, the toothpaste is out of the tube. And right now, theres so much hate and anger and division, that nobody is even TRYING to find a valid solution. It’s all just one big power grab, leading to many to just stay out of the whole damn thing. Myself included.
I wish thing would go back likw they were before
would you rather be emotionally vulnerable with a woman or a tree?
Lol lol. I haven’t heard that one. Tree, by far. The tree won’t use it against me later. (which has happened enough times that I got the point, even from women who told me verbatim to be vulnerable. Yep, they still used it against me later.)
There is very little positive guidance, just a sea of don’ts, usually worded as absolutes. And a lot of divisive “gender war” BS from all sides. Really not surprising.
For positive guidance, here’s my approach in bars:
- Casual environment. Preferably full of people, it’s safer for both.
- Good hygiene, and clothes that show self-care. You don’t need to LARP as rich, but don’t pop up with a spaghetti-stained T-shirt either.
- Find some excuse to start a conversation. Plenty of times I’ve approached women outright saying “hey, I’m drinking alone and up to a chat. Are you waiting for someone?” (implied: “is it OK for me to sit with you?”)
- Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don’t bring it yourself.
- Find some topic that both of you enjoy to chitchat about. Avoid divisive ones.
It works well enough here in Latin America to break the ice.
Important: be assertive but don’t be pushy. It’s fine to show interest, it’s not fine to insist. If you notice that she’s uncomfortable with your presence, just leave. And some people will be only up for the chat, but won’t be willing for anything sexy or romantic, that’s fine too as long as you don’t push boundaries.
Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don’t bring it yourself.
When you specifically say this, I get it…but that thought would have never run through my mind in the moment.
PERFECT advice! Much love.
be assertive but don’t be pushy
I think a lot of young men won’t do the former in fear of being judged as the later. Sorry guys, women want assertive men, not twerps. The vast majority of women want a man who can make a decision and execute.
Know the age old meme where a man asks a women where she wants to eat and she hems and haws, can’t decide? Guys! YOU make the decision and present it to her. Hopefully you learned something about what she likes. Maybe you know a place she’s never been to? (That’s a great choice!)
“Dinner tonight? We’ll go to La Hacienda. Ever been there?”
And then judge her reaction. If you’re not too far off, they usually jump! People have a hard time hiding negative reactions. If she doesn’t go all in?
“(laugh) You don’t look like you’re not loving it. OK, we’ll try $restaurant.”
Or maybe she presents you with two wardrobe options before going out. Pick one, and be assertive. Even if you don’t care one way or the other.
“That one! That will look great on you!”
No thanks.
I’m not interested in playing those games.Basic human interaction is now “games”. Talking to people in ways they understand and react positively to is now a “game”.
Ever heard of 4chan? Head over there, you’ll fit right in.
if you’re following a script to optimize the outcome then yes, you’re playing games.
I value authenticity and honesty even if suboptimal/inconvenient.
Dunno, maybe that’s just my autism showing.Also, i don’t appreciate you calling me names.
But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.
Rejection and social consequences have absolutely been part of the game, pretty much forever. If I had to wager, what’s different now is that young people spend time online that has replaced irl time, which has “upped the stakes” for irl interactions in their minds. They also just haven’t been as conditioned to being rejected irl and learning to move on.
I say all this as an elder Millennial who employs quite a few 20-somethings, and who has several 20-something nieces/nephews
In the past, rejection ended when the interaction ended.
Now, the person doing the rejection can go home, record a Tiktok about how creeped out they were by this “weirdo creep” who approached them, and now you’re being harassed by half the students in your school.
I think OP might be referring moreso to “social consequences” like this.
We didn’t have to contend with things like say, the guy the girl rejected taking pics of the girl and making a bunch of pornographic deepfakes and spreading them around the school. The fact that it’s fake doesn’t matter, because enough people have seen it and have made judgments already based on it.
The social consequences now are deep, fast, and long-lasting.
In the past, nobody but you and the person who rejected you remember. Now, the nickname that follows you for the rest of your school career is rooted in the embarrassing thing that went viral all over students social media feeds. Now, nobody forgets, and nobody let’s you forget.
In the past, rejection ended when the interaction ended.
Uh, no, it didn’t lmao
People talked shit and spread gossip and rumors all the time. Social failures often spread like wildfire through middle and high schools. When and where did you grow up?
Now, the person doing the rejection can go home, record a Tiktok about how creeped out they were by this “weirdo creep” who approached them, and now you’re being harassed by half the students in your school.
That’s the thing though… This doesn’t happen… This is shit people see online and think every interaction is like this. 99% of men / women aren’t psychos that would want to embarrass somone like this for expressing interest.
In fact I’d wager as long as you are nice and respectful they’ll be flattered and you’ll make their day.
Remember the last time somone told you, you are cute, did you A. Go batshit with fear, or B. Feel flattered and good about yourself for the day…
At the grocery store? Lol no
At the bar, if you’re hot sure
So with the exception of attractive people, you would say it’s an out of date norm?
Define attractive.
I couldn’t find the clip, but look up Jamie Hyneman’s definition from the drunk goggles episode of myth busters. Symmetry, no blemishes, age, health.
I’ve noticed less interactions between strangers in general. I think there is a general anxiety issue and a fear of conversations going south/ people getting aggressive. Whether or not that’s rational idk.
I’ve never approached a woman. Is terrifying and not worth the humiliation.
Yeah
Human resources …
If her humiliation to you has any worth, that means you are the problem, not her.
What’s the worst thing that can happen? That they say no? Because that’s effectively what happens if you don’t even try.
They can use social humiliation, which is way worse than not trying.
“Ugh who the fuck are you, get out of here you fucking weirdo. Why are strange men approaching me? UGH! Get away!”
It hasn’t happened to me but I’ve seen it happen. The guy imo was behaving normally and reasonably. I think the girl just didn’t want to bother. Fucking shameful on the girl’s behalf when she could have politely turned him down.
What kind of awful, shallow people are you approaching? Pre-screen for people who don’t talk like that, to start with.
Re-read the post
Ok, but then you can just move on with your life and realize she’s not the one for you…
If you’re just approaching a random girl she probably isn’t going to remember you in a couple weeks unless you are being super fucking creepy, and for sure no one in the general public is going to remember you 15 minutes later
you can just move on with your life
That’s easily said, but if you, for example, struggle with self-image anyway then being ostracized like that can really sting and paralyze. It probably is relatively easy for people who have a lot of self-confidence anyway, but not everybody does, especially in these situations.
This then usually bring up the problem of guys not taking the hint when a woman refuses nicely. It seems to me like the best strategy for a woman who isn’t interested in over-confident/tone-deaf guys is to do the asking herself. Which also comes with lots of potential issues.
Also if it isn’t a random person at a bar you’re talking to but someone you already know a bit then rejection probably also means that any other relationship you might have had is over, maybe even any relationship you had with mutual friends/acquaintances.
Self confidence isnt being perfect in social situations, its understanding everyone has similar experiences and feelings, and so makes the same mistakes with the same frequency.
Mistakes aren’t bad, your reaction to mistakes is what is bad.
I’m just saying that there’s a reason why this might hurt and make people avoid it. Takes a lot of work to reduce that because it isn’t a conscious reaction you can just decide to not have.
I never said there couldn’t be reasons to reel bad about it. Im saying that feeling bad about it is ultimately a decision we make, at least as adults.
Let me put it this way, we both go out and attempt to start conversations with women and it ends up going nowhere each time. You might feel extremely dejected, disappointed with yourself, or like you were stupid for thinking it could have worked. The worst feeling I would have is, dang I’m either unlucky tonight or I just dont belong here, but none of that reflects on me personally.
So what if they didnt like me, I dont want everyone to like me, and theres probably good reason we didnt click.
I could call someone a cunt and punch them in the face, and they could just move on with their lives
I mean if someone called me a cunt I’d probably just call them a cunt back and move on with my life
If someone punched me in the face I would punch them back and then also move on with my life
It’s not that deep
Or, maybe people shouldn’t do those things
Generally yes. But you also control how you react to things. Not everyone, especially not strangers, can be held accountable for how you react. There’s just not enough time in the day to know how every single random person will take things, and by the same token, you don’t know how many times that person has dealt with the same situation that made them finally snap
It would be great if everyone was kind all the time, but that’s just blatantly not gonna happen. You can try to be kind all the time, but that does not mean you will succeed. I’ve never purposefully tried to hurt my girlfriends feelings, and she’s never purposefully tried to hurt mine. But we’ve still gotten in fights and we’ve still hurt each other, and we’re still together and have let things go. If you sit there with every single random person on the street who shouts something at you and hold onto it then you’re not really gonna do well in the world. If you then choose to be a hermit and not talk to people, you have absolutely no right to complain that you can’t make relationships work.
Ridicule from peers. - Anecdotal evidence: there was a streamer that found herself in a situation where a guy tried to ask a other girl out. Instead of congratulating him on his braveness or pitying him for rejection, the streamer choose to laugh at his absurd circumstances where he got rejected in front of thousands of people. Even if she wanted to pity him, this moment sends a message that discourages asking girls out.
That video is unwatchable so I don’t know the details, but maybe just don’t stream you asking someone out? I’d be willing to bet that the risk of being ridiculed for asking is lower than the chance of her saying yes. The realistic worst case scenario is that she says no than you and you’re back exactly where you started from.
Then what’s the fucking point? Being denied plus feeling even worse than before? I don’t see how that helps
Its your choice to feel bad about it, plenty of people can make mistakes every 15 minutes and forgive themselves just fine.
They are saying its a better chance than doing nothing. If you are going to do nothing then stop bitching about it, since clearly you have given up. You can always change your perspective if you give yourself the chance to though.
The worst thing that can reasonably happen is she actively makes fun of you to others, especially if she was already your friend or acquaintance. Saying no is usually the BEST case scenario if they’re not interested. Some people are just nasty and enjoy hurting others if it inflates their own ego.
Even in a best-case scenario, people are going to find out you were shot down, which is already pretty humiliating, especially if you share friends.
I personally would never ask someone out in person unless I was already close friends with them and trusted them with that level of power over me.
Its not humiliating to be told no.
It’s the gossip that comes after the no. Nobody cares about feelings or dignity anymore.
Maybe they just dont feel the se wa6 about rejection as you. Its far more likely you are assuming I’ll intent than your friends are actively mocking you.
If your friends are really mocking you, they aren’t your friends. At what point will you stand up for yourself and demand to be treated with a basic level of respect?
I’m fine with my friends, it’s the woman’s friends, social network that’s the problem. It’s fine, I don’t care anymore, I’m just not going to try. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze, imho.
Women share things like this with each other to keep each other safe in most cases. It can seem cruel but if a girl feels like the way you reacted to rejection was bad enough it was a red flag, then they have every right to share that with their social network.
All it takes is some self awareness and acceptance of your own mistakes and they will quickly change their tune though. Humility is very important especially from a mans perspective towards women.
I disagree, being romantically rejected is always humiliating unless you’ve somehow reached some Buddha state where the opinions and feelings of others truly don’t matter to you at all. You are directly being told, to your face, by someone you respect and admire, that they don’t like you as much as you like them. That shit hurts!
The person telling you no isnt saying you are a shit person, it means they aren’t interested in you. You’ve surely met women you aren’t interested in right? You would be right to tell them no if they asked you out, as the alternative is lieing and misleading, and will cause pain in most cases.
Its okay for someone not to be interested in you. Breath a little, step back and calm down. Its like some version of main character syndrome.
Also, I would consider it a huge red flag if someone had such a negative reaction to being told no when asking someone out. It implies there is a lack of confidence and self assuredness that is a base requirement to be in healthy relationship. We all know women are very careful of red flags and share them with each other as well so this can be self defeating.
If you want to find someone to be with, then you need to figure out how to properly treat someone like an equal, which includes respecting both yourself and them enough to prevent a negative reaction to simply being told you aren’t a persons preference.
Well I asked a girl to dance with me at a club and she told the bouncer I tried to roofie her so yeah a lot worse things can happen. I still can’t grip properly with my right hand and it’s been over six years.
Wrong. Being denied is worse, it breaks you down
When thinking back on my life it’s not things I failed at that I regret, it’s the things I didn’t even try.
Is better to not try than feeling broken and humiliated. Trust me.
I don’t trust you on this. I have evidence to the contrary. Cynicism is not my game.
If you’re a weak sack, sure.
The worst case is you crit fail the social interaction abd get some new trauma that drives you even further away from aocial interaction 👍
Whod?
I wonder how much of this fear is self-induced. Given we spend so much more of our time on the internet, and there has been a huge sexual reckoning for men. Women in the past two decades have gotten A L O T more vocal about shitty treatment from men, and that’s a good thing. That said, male exposure to this vocal messaging has gone up and men are way more aware of it.
The thing is, though, is that men are missing the point. Women aren’t necessarily saying don’t come up and talk to me, but rather don’t come up and grope me, or be a general pervert.
I have been out of the game for a long time, but I doubt treating a woman as a human, and being overall respectful would go over poorly, even if you were propositioning her for a date.
Women are saying don’t approach me.
I’ve been seeing it, as an observer, since the 90’s.
Not all women, but enough.
There’s a lot hinging on the definition of “approach a woman in person” here, but the general conclusion of men being afraid of being labelled a creep tends to hold true in the people I know.
I have a friend who made moves on a mutual friend. As far as I know, he didn’t do anything egregious. Farthest either said he went was putting his arm around her shoulder on a couch after she came back to his place with him alone to watch something after they had been hanging out and flirting most of the day. Both say he stopped as soon as she made it clear she wasn’t interested (okay, hand off, I’m going to ramble like a nerd about this show because I legitimately wanted to show you it on top of anything else that might happen). She refused to attend anything where he would be present for over a year and had some very strong opinions about just how much of a womanizing creep he was.
So I’ve seen this sort of thing first hand.
But I think in general throughout time, guys generally didn’t go up to a complete strangers and ask them out.
I approached my wife in person in a casual setting without any ulterior motives. We were both at a mutual friend’s college graduation celebration. I knew precisely two people there, and they were chatting with other people. I had already exhausted small talk with most of the older family members of the graduate. I saw a woman off to the side not looking sure what to do with themselves and decided to try and start up a conversation. Maybe we could be awkward together. We ended up glued to each other keeping a conversation going for the rest of the event. Realized that night back home that I wanted to date her, and spent time checking out her facebook and talking to mutual friends to learn more about her before I asked her out via text. I even tried to make that casual, as I was inviting her to join me at a small local theater performance I was already going to either way, and dinner beforehand if she was interested. I didn’t call it a date, just “hey I’m doing this thing that seems like something you’d enjoy, want to get dinner beforehand and come with?”
She was the roommate of someone in my friend group, and I was told in no uncertain terms by our mutual friends that if I screwed it up or hurt her they would hurt me.
So… yeah. Not going to flirt with a complete stranger for fear of being maced, or being socially ostracized by being labelled something like a creeper. Intense hesitation to date within or (in the case of my wife) on the periphery of my social groups lest I damage something.
After the show, I was so direct with my now wife about what I was looking for that she had to tell me to slow down, because if we had a relationship some of those things wouldn’t only be up to me. And I told it to her saying “Look, I don’t want to make ultimatums, but I don’t want to waste either of our time, or for things to get serious only for some core incompatibility to come up and leave us both hurt. If any of this is a deal breaker, let’s get it out in the open now and we can continue as friends, because you’re really cool and I’d hate to miss out on that just because things couldn’t work out romantically.”
Ultimately things did work out, but it definitely wasn’t the type of “courtship” people think of, or is shown in media.
My parents didn’t meet as complete strangers either. Most people I know in relationships didn’t.
She was the roommate of someone in my friend group, and I was told in no uncertain terms by our mutual friends that if I screwed it up or hurt her they would hurt me.
Kind of like the dad with the shotgun trope ;)
Anyway thanks for the contribution. It’s interesting. I’m starting to question whether this “norm” of approaching women out of the blue was ever “in of date” in the first place.
You can do it if you follow these 2 rules: be attractive and don’t be unattractive.
All of these comments going on and on, and this is the answer right here.
I don’t know, I agree and think it’s true in many circumstances. But I don’t think we should say it, seems like repeating this, even if true, could be socially deleterious. Same with the money thing. But then, I don’t know that we should be pretending it’s not a factor at all either (like with money)
I think it IS getting out of date. It seems to me the modern approach is to contact the woman in a friendly manner without asking her out on a date, which is mostly a more comfortable situation for both sides and can lead to a date in the future if both sides feel like there’s chemistry there.
