I feel like anyone who genuinely has a strong opinion on this and isn’t actively developing something related has too much time on their hands ricing their desktop and needs to get a job
My full-time job literally involves dealing with systemd’s crap. There is a raspberry pi that controls all of our signage. Every time it is powered on, systemd gets stuck because it’s trying to mount two separate partitions to the same mount point, whereupon I have to take a keyboard and a ladder, climb up the ceiling, plug in the keyboard, and press Enter to get it to boot. I’ve tried fixing it, but all I did was break it more.
As someone who’s not a developer at all and has been making a comic about systemd for a rather small audience, it’s worse than you think: We actually have stuff to do and procrastinate on them while spending time and thoughts in this, reading old blog posts and forum debates as if deciphering Sumerian epic poems. Many pages were made while I was supposed to be preparing for exams, which I barely passed. Others when I should’ve been cleaning up for moving. I think part of the reason why I haven’t made any in a while is that with a faithful audience being born and waiting for the next chapter, it’s started feeling like something I had to do, and therefore, the type of stuff I procrastinate on.
[ *] (3 of 3) A stop job is running for User Manager for UID 1000... (1m12s / 3m)# nano /etc/systemd/{system,user}.conf ---- DefaultTimeoutStopSec=10sYou’re welcome.
Type
rebootinto an SSH session and play everyone’s favorite game show…WILL IT ACTUALLY DO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
Do people still debate about systemd?
I will take OpenRC to my grave
I’m more of a runit guy, but I started using Alpine recently, and I have to say, openrc is also pretty nice!
Unit files, sockets and systemctl
Stop it Patrick, you’re scaring him!
What “scares” me the most is the journal… for some reason it takes too long to get specific unit logs, and should anything break down in it, there is no way for me to fix it. Like logging has been solved forever, and I prefer specific unit logs to the abomination of journalctl.
But like unit files are everywhere, and systemctl at its core is a nice cmd utility.
The thing with journalctl is that it is a database. Thus means that searching and finding things can be fast and easy in high complexity cases but it can also stall in cases with very high resource usage.
cool
“I hate systemd, it’s bloated and overengineered” people stay, perched precariously on their huge tower of shell scripts and cron jobs.
If systemd was only managing services there would be less opposition. People opposed don’t want a single thing doing services and boot and user login and network management and…
Are they also opposed to coreutils being a single project with dozens of executables doing different things?
IDK, ask them. There are some in this thread. I’m addressing the strawman argument that people against it are luddites set in their ways over their beloved cron jobs.
“I hate systemd, it’s bloated and overengineered”
And built poorly by people who don’t work well with others and then payola’ed onto the world.
people stay, perched precariously on their huge tower of shell scripts and cron jobs.
Fucking UNIX is shell scripts and cron jobs, skippy. Add xinetd and you’re done.
yeah I just hate the move away from flat text files honestly. Its one thing I did not like about windows NT with the registry. databasing up the config.
huge tower of shell scripts and cron jobs.
That’s bloat. I start all my services manually according to my needs. Why start cupsd BEFORE I need to print anything?
thats what systemd sockets are here for
or inetd!
The systemd debate is basically dead. There are very few against it, but many accept it by now. Just avoid phoronix forum and some other places.
The systemd debate is basically dead.
Not until it isn’t shite.
The systemd debate is basically dead.
But the Super Nintendo vs. Sega Genesis/Megadrive debate rages on.
Because Sega does what Nintendon’t
Like trying to destroy people’s lives so they can make a few dollars.
It has Blast Processing!
Both have great games.
Mega Drive is clearly better because that’s the one I had as a child.
I had neither…
Skill issue. Try the following:
- be born into a different family that did have a Mega Drive
- time travel back in time and give yourself a Mega Drive
- travel to an alternate universe (or as I like to call it, time travel sideways) where Mega Drives are standard issue at birth
Hope this helps. Git gud.Thanks for the troubleshooting, I will consider those steps.
Anytime I see a Phoronix article (very loosely) about systemd or Wayland I fill my insults bingo card.
What’s wrong with Wayland? I get the hate for systemd, even though I love it dearly, but I get the hate. But what’s wrong with Wayland? It’s amazing as far as I have used it. I started using with when Fedora 40 shipped plasma 6.
I’ll preface this by saying that I’m a Wayland user (Hyprland, then KDE Plasma, and I’ll be giving Cosmic a fair shot), and don’t see myself returning to X and having to choose between massive screen tearing and massive input lag.
Wayland is missing many features that are required for some people or some applications. There’s no way for a multi-window application to tell the compositor where to place the windows, for example to have one window snap to and follow the other. Color profiles were implemented very recently. Wayland’s isolation of applications, while a significant improvement to security, has made remote input software and
xdotool-like programs highly dependent on third-party interoperability solutions (specifically dbus and XDG Desktop Portal). The same isolation broke most accessibility tools like screen readers. Dockable windows, like the toolbars in QT Creator or QOwnNotes, are often difficult or impossible to dock back into the main window.Because Wayland compositors have to implement all protocols (as opposed to deferring to the X.Org server; which is why wlroots is such a big deal) or rely on XDG Desktop Portal (which has never worked right for me), feature parity between compositors is never guaranteed, and especially problematic with GNOME dragging its heels.
Wayland is nowhere near feature parity with X11 today, and that is a legitimate prohibitive issue for many people. Wayland will never reach total feature parity with X11 in some areas, and that will always be prohibitive for some people.
But the worst (in my opinion) is the development process of the Wayland protocols. The proposal discussion threads read like the best and/or worst sitcom you’ve ever seen. It took them several months of back-and-forth just short of ad hominem attacks to decide how a window should set its icon. Several months for a pissing WINDOW ICON!
Well, Fedora 40 here as well and it just doesn’t work on my computer. Sure, Nvidia, blah blah blah. X does work flawlessly on my machine, though.
It’s missing a lot of features that Wayland “developers” (spec writers) don’t want to add because they personally don’t need them. For the few features they actually add, they leave it to WM developers to implement them, thus creating different incompatible implementations.
Various mildly understandable to braindead reasons
- “it doesn’t work”
- “breaks my workflow”
- “Xorg is better”
- “Nvidia”
- “no reason to use it”
- “being pushed by IBM”
- “no SSH forwarding”
- “has taken too long to get to current state”
- “when I last tried it 5 years ago it didn’t work”
For one thing they were so obsessed with security as a concept devleoping it that they completely ignored the use case of screen-readers for the visually impaired and prevent apps from accessing text from other apps and as far as I know it is still an issue.
Part of me wants to troll and come up with crazy statements
“Just avoid places that sysadmins and security guys frequent and get your opinions on systemd from memes and people running arch on home machine”. Great plan.
Systemd is absolute and utter shit, especially from security perspective.
Noone was asking security guys but package maintainers.
My favorite systemd thing is booting up a box with 6 NICs where only 1 was configured during the initial setup. Second favorite is betting on whether it will hang on reboot/shutdown.
Great tool, 10/10.
My favorite was when the behavior of a USB drive in
/etc/fstabwent from “hmm it’s not plugged in at boot, I’ll let the user know” to “not plugged in? Abort! Abort! We can’t boot!”This change over previous init behavior was especially fun on headless machines…
You could just use systemd mounts like a normal person. Fstab is for critical partitions
This happened to me when Debian switched from SysV to systemd. I am not the only person who experienced this (e.g., https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=147478 ).
This is not to say the systemd behavior is wrong, but it essentially changed the behavior of
fstab. Whether this is Debian’s fault, Arch’s fault (per the above link), systemd’s fault, or my fault is a fair question. But this committed that most egregious of sins per our Lord and Savior Torvalds — it broke my userspace.That was a really long time ago. (2015) I don’t understand why you are holding a grudge for almost 10 years. Most people have never used a system without systemd.
Fstab is for critical partitions
Hush everyone, don’t tell this guy about
noauto, it’ll burst his bubbleI’ve never seen it used in the wild
Jesus, I mount everything manually from noauto, except root.
If nfs isn’t available, I don’t want my system to hang, typing mount takes 2 seconds.
Wouldn’t your NFS not mount in that case? Wouldn’t you want it to retry periodically? Also, what happens to your service when NFS isn’t available?
Sounds like systemd mounts are better in this case (unless the device is non critical)
I’ve gotten into quite a lot of systemd-related flame wars so far, and what strikes me is that I haven’t heard a single reason why systemd is good and should be used in favor of openrc/sysvinit/whatever. The only arguments I hear in favor of systemd, even from the its diehard defenders, are justifications why it’s not that bad. Not once have I heard someone advocate for systemd with reasoning that goes likes “Systemd is superior to legacy init systems because you can do X much easier” or “systemd is more secure because it’s resistant against Y attack vector”. It’s always “Linus says it’s allright” or “binary logfiles aren’t a problem, you can just get them from journald instead of reading the file”, or “everyone already uses it”.
When it comes to online discourse, systemd doesn’t have advocates, it has apologists.
Linus had an epic flame war with the systemd idiots for breaking Linux stupidly: https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/tso-and-linus-and-the-impotent-rage-against-systemd/
He didn’t do anything because he made it clear he owned the kernel and userspace was someone else’s problem, but also that the systemd guys were absolute morons who were a danger to themselves and everyone else.
Well, I’ll tell you that I prefer systemd because I can comprehend its declarative unit files and dependency-based system a lot better than the shell script DSLs and runlevels that I’ve had to mess with in other init systems.
systemctl statushas a quite nice output that can be really handy when debugging units. I like being able to pull up logs for just about any service on my system with a simplejournalctlcommand instead of researching where the log file is.
“Just avoid places that sysadmins and security guys frequent and get your opinions on systemd from memes and people running arch on home machine”. Great plan.
So salty. Also twisting the things I said. I for sure like to visit phoronix, but I avoid the phoronix forum and advice was to avoid the forum.
Noone was asking security guys but package maintainers.
citation needed.
Keep using Devuan if it makes you happy.
Not really interested in debating with average “I run arch btw” user. We are not in the same universe, things I have to audit and maintain are not in the same universe with things you do, so having such a smart advice coming from you is not a surprise at all. I could, after all, just roll out my own distro if I am not happy, amirite?
I run systemd machines because I don’t have a choice. It doesn’t make it any less of a shit. Simple as that.
But hey, tell me some more about systemd, I am really new to all this 🤔
Buddy lay off the Rick and Morty and take a shower
“I’m not in the same universe as you!!!” Get a grip
Out of curiosity, why exactly do you not have a choice in not running systemd? Is it company policy / are they clients’ machines?
Although there is an argument for not using it on (very) old systems
