(in a similar vein)
There is a third choice, where you say both are bad (ie. anarchists and pure marxists). But most people on lemmy.ML are Marxist Leninists (ML) who simp for authotarian states that call themselves socialist, like Russia, China, and North Korea.
russia does not even pretend to be socialist
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ain’t no fucking way this fella’s calling china and north korea resistance to the bourgeoisie and imperialism
Pure Marxist, Classical Marxist, Orthodox Marixst, whetever you want to call people who follow Marxism without Leninst or other authoritarian leaning interpretations.
They are the only countries who resist the western bourgeoisie imperial order
By trying to create their own imperial order. Nazi Germany also resisted the western imperialist order by trying to create their own imperial order.
Your point about Russia not even pretending to be socialist is very much true. Which makes it more baffling that some people on ML support it. Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?
The number of Marxists who explicitly reject Lenin make up a tiny minority of the overall number of Marxists globally, and the ones who do so reside almost exclusively in Western Countries. Trying to uphold rejections of Lenin’s expansions on Marx’s original writings as “pure” doesn’t really fit with that.
Secondly, no Marxist supports the Russian Federation, they see it as a horrible Capitalist regime that is temporarily working against the United States out of desparation. The concept of “critical support” is accepting that someone you entirely disagree with ideologically can be fighting a shared enemy, no more and no less.
Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?
Critically support, somewhat, and the argument is that in a geopolitical context the US is more dangerous to Socialist movements than countries opposing US hegemony at the moment, and that once US hegemony is toppled these countries that once had “critical support” can be turned into the next enemy to be fought, assuming they don’t come to Socialism before then. The very fact that you say which is worse is “arguable” lends validity to the concept of critical support, as the alternative is further US domination of the Global South.
Even then, Marxists are divided on Russia with respect to whether or not to even critically support it. The notion that there are Marxists that support the Russian Federation outright as an example of Marxism is fantasy.
Ah, yes, Lenin. Definitely the creator of Marxism-Leninism, no reason to talk about the other guy. Don’t look up anything about Stalin, he’s harder for tankies to whitewash, not that they won’t fall ass over teakettle trying. It’s their job after all.
Lenin created the theory, he didn’t call himself a “Marxist-Leninist” just like Marx didn’t call himself a “Marxist.” In the context of the comment I replied to, they specifically cited Orthodox Marxists, a fringe minority among Marxists that intentionally reject Lenin.
Bro smelt discussion about Marxism and dashed here immediately💀
Yea I’m a bit of a theory nerd…
It seems that you’re in every discussion that contains some mention of socialism or Marxism. How many threads do you scroll a day?
Ok, so if I’m understanding this correctly, you’re supportive of the actions of countries that oppress their own people (e.g. Russia’s anti-LGBT+ laws, China’s oppression of Uyghurs and Tibetans, etc.), aggressively invade other countries (as Russia is doing in Ukraine, as China sort of did with Hong Kong’s semi-independence and is threatening to do to Taiwan, not to mention their enforcement of their claims in Vietnamese and Filipino waters), without being supportive of the countries themselves. Because you think that those countries causing harm to the western world is likely to eventually lead to the west doing less harm to the developing world, and/or help accelerate the proletarian revolution in western countries?
Is that a fair (in content, if not in tone) assessment of your stance?
I wouldn’t say that’s a fair assessment of my comment, plus I very specifically did not give my stance as my goal was to dispell the myth that any Marxists approve of the Russian Federation’s Capitalism, ultranationalism, reactionary social views, etc. I don’t want to give my personal stance here, as
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That would take far too long for a simple Lemmy thread to convey with any real complexity, and
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What I personally believe doesn’t matter here, it wouldn’t lead to productive conversation to begin with as Marxism is not a monolith (which was the central point of my last paragraph)
Ok, I guess you’re a lost cause then. Your comments in this thread had me almost thinking I was speaking to someone reasonable, but nope…just typical tankie bullshit.
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Literally ignoring the slaughter of Uyghurs and Ukranians, never mind how China is essentially building up the hate speech against Japan and Taiwan within the populace through their state controlled social networks. Get back to us when you can criticize China in the same way. Same for Russia, extreme jail sentences are dished out for anyone who criticizes Putin. You are too much of a caricature, and exactly what the meme refers to.
The USSR was a victim of trying to outimperial an imperialist power and going bankrupt, and now it’s an oligarchy with Putin at the top and any serious opposition dead and out the window / irradiated with polinium / poisoned by Novichok. China has literal execution vans driving around the country, has extended its secret police deep state overseas to intimidate Chinese who don’t play ball, and constantly rewrites its map to expand to land they want to claim as theirs. They are in border disputes with India, they are actively preparing to invade Taiwan, they have blockaded the island several times now, they have cooperated to cut undersea cables, have militarized fishing fleets that migrate world wide and bully local fishermen and exhaust the local stocks. And all you have is that raging desire to whatabout “b-b-but the US does it / does worse!” right about now and a whole bunch of rhetoric that makes you a puppet of it.
Russia is where it is at because it has chosen this road. Before Putin tried to use the myth of restablishing USSR to enlarge the rule of his oligarchy, it was well on its way to being quite influential in Europe, so much so that it was a major partner of Germany. Russia chose conquest and sides with dictators who exploit their people. It’s telling that the US is at its worst when it has the people who collude closest with Russia.
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Interesting that the only examples of Marxist countries followed the Leninist model
Perhaps because in China, Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, anarcho-communists and anti-authoritarian marxsist fought the revolution alongside more authoritarian branches in “left unity” but were later brutally murdered by the authoritarian branches.
socialist world order
I’m not okay with a world order supported by countries like China and North Korea, pretending to be “socialist” while having murdered anarchists, LGBT people, people with disabilities and ethnic minorities.
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What country is that?
China, North Korea etc
Oh right I’m on the transphobic instance based in genocide land. I keep forgetting to block you bigots on new accounts.
huh? I’m a bigot because I say China and North Korea use the aesthetics of socialism to hide their atrocities?
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Yes I’m sure Soviet Union killing anarchists and genociding their Ukrainian polulation was the “direct consequence of US Imperialism”.
Also a 3 day old account posting on a single issue and spamming dozens of comments every 10 minutes. Dodgy behaviour.
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Ah yes, German fascism in… 1920.
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Man, why did I stumble on this thread after the tankies got deleted
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Stalin says to Kropotkin: “The difference between us is that you’re an aristocrat while I’m from the working class.”
Kropotkin answer: “True, but we also have something in common: We are both class traitors.”That was Kruschev and China’s Minister of Foreign Affairs.
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Based
Reminder: “US bad” is not a valid argument for “Russia good”
Yes, it’s literally non sequitur. And a very popular propaganda move: [country A] is good because [country B] is worse. In fact, it usually is not even relatively good if there’s a need for such ‘argument’
*confused tankie noises
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“Nothing to eat for 10 years” is the find out part of Russia fucking around.
They are no better than the Nazis. Exact same MO. Occupy countries through Imperalistic expansion, genocide the local population, and make simps like you eat up their propaganda.
I look forward to the upcoming Russian collapse. Would be nice if they stop spreading nuclear weapons to terrorists like North Korea and Iran first.
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You are the warmonger for white washing russian attrocities.
Why is North Korea involved now?
You want Ukrainians to die and you don’t care.
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Imagine actually thinking that anyone is to blame for this besides Russia. How about you stop being a coward with your garbage ideology and take ownership of your actions instead of blaming everyone else?
This is why you losers don’t mean anything to the world. You commit crimes against humanity, you support the worst dictators in the world, and you subjugate people while pretending you’re anything but murdering thieves.
Nothing in your rant justifies Russia invading a sovereign country, murdering its citizens or deporting its children.
Arguing agaist a nonexistent “pro US” stance and using it to morally justify Russia is exactly the kind of nonsense I was pointing out.
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The one you have been arguing against seems like a bot or human waiting to annoy people for their satisfaction imo.
Yep :) I even haven’t been arguing with them, just posted a meme that I thought relevant - and as soon as I saw my mailbox explode, I blocked them.
Thanks for the concern tho ;)
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The American playbook is: coup unfriendly regime, install friendly government, get trade agreements, use economic dominance to enrich the US via trade (with the occasional “set up US company to take control of natural resources”). The US was very open that they liked Putin because it seemed he would be liberalising Russia for a while, which furthered American corporate interests in Russia.
Putin turning ultranationalist has thrown a massive wrench into that plan, because now US corporations are being forced to exit Russia again. The damage that that is doing is greater than what Lockheed Martin gets for supplying weapons. It’s also in part why Trump, beholden to US corporate interests, is so keen to end the war. Because that makes the US more money than keeping it going. And as it happens, that’s also what Putin wants because he can pressure Trump to end the war in Russia’s favour.
How old are you?
-1
The USSR did not fall because of a US coup. It collapsed because of its own internal contradictions.
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That’s 1995.
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Right. I’m wasting my time, I see. Go troll somewhere else buddy.
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The tankies are out in full force in this thread.
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literally by doing the same
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Let’s swallow the Russia bit, right? Because Russian history from Ivan III to Nicholas II is basically exactly imperialist colonialism.
And then you just focus on the China bit. Yes, the westerners did that to China in the past. Does that mean that modern day China is structurally incapable of being an imperialist country in the 21st century? Or because the CCP pays lip service to socialism (while Xi tells people to train as Confucians) we’re supposed to ignore the actual capitalist nature of its economy/society?
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Funny how it’salways some other countries fault, never the fault of the dictators.
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Anger, insults and fake insinuations is the weak mans arguments.
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username is NOT checking out, lmao!
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Sorry for your notifications OP, I went through the same thing when I posted this here.
First it was fun watching the argument unfold. Now it’s annoying lol. Thank you, kind stranger.
Should we start a peer-support group?
Sure! Maybe we can be called Survivors of Poking the Campist Hive lmao.
Pro Tipp: turn off notifications; just post a spicy comment and return 6h later to view the carnage
Alas, I’m not sure how to do that here on Kbin.
They’re just fascists.
Every time this gets reposted I need to point out that it is spelled: “You are not an anti-imperialist”
English is stupid.
but neither are necessary. someone could just be anti imperialist.
Don’t be an party pooper
French:
A beautiful man:
Un <= masculin (A)
Homme <= masculin (Man)
So the adjective should be masculine, right?
But as homme 1) starts with a H and the word does not have nordic descent, it’s not the masculine ‘beaux’ but feminine :
Un bel homme.
But not belle eh, just bel (they obviously sound exactly the same).
Because, it sounds better.
Which language was stupid now again?
It’s crazy humanity can communicate at all.
Simping for any government leadership is just gross. These people don’t actually care about protecting the working class; they just want power, money, and recognition. As soon as you put a human into that role, they corrupt in one way or another. It’s why I clarify that I support the struggling working class under any ruler. The fight is always about them and ensuring they have human rights and a right to self-determination.
Every person I’ve met in my lifetime that lived under communism had nothing good to say about it, and they were all working class. Some pasty white dudes in America don’t know shit about that and never will. They get into a fantasy loop because living under capitalism fucking sucks, and dreaming about something perceived as better is understandable.
I recommend people read Marx and keep trying to unite the working class. Take the good pieces and stop idolizing people. As soon as you idolize a person, you are incapable of being able to identify when they do or say something terrible.
lol pootin. RIP BOZO
You can tell the election is over because liberals have switched from “you must full throatedly give your support to genocidal fascists because they’re the lesser evil” back to “how dare you give any critical support to the lesser evil, you tankie!”
Happens every four years
Kinda hard to simp for Russia when I can feel Putin constantly breathing down my neck.
account age less than a day
🤡
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That’s kinda the most insane part about tankies supporting Putin to me. Russia is basically Reagan’s wet dream right now, their entire government and economic system was built in the image American capitalists wanted. To support Putin is to support the Western hegemony, but since Russia was the Soviet Union once, Tankies just give it a free pass? Wtf?
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So edgy
“America should stop sending bombs to its puppet” is not supporting Russia.
Way to downplay the self determination of smaller countries! Ukraine allies with the US for the same reason Vietnam often sides with the US over China: the empire next door is a bigger problem than the empire on the other side of the planet. The US is the lesser evil in those situations, especially in Ukraine’s case.
The alternative is being an actual puppet to an empire that sees you as nothing but a buffer and a breadbasket. Being under the thumb of a reformed empire that inflicted famine and genocide on you and other neighbors. The ethnic Russian makeup of post Soviet countries isn’t a mistake, but an example of deliberate imperialism by that Russian empire.
In terms of this disrespect, Ukraine got of easy compared to countries like Kazakhstan. I don’t care how much you complain about landowners in Ukraine, I dare you to defend the population control and environmental destruction there as anything less than imperialist cruelty.
The Soviet Union was a red-washed Russian empire, not some model system that was much different than the liberty-clad American empire. It was not made of equal states, but a dominant power squeezing the rest. Nationalistic bullshit is what the selfish turn to when capitalism runs its course, and that’s what this tankie bullshit is: counter-revolutionary garbage where nothing fundamentally changes. The answers will never be that easy.
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The ethnic Russian makeup of post Soviet countries isn’t a mistake, but an example of deliberate imperialism by that Russian empire.
Indeed. it’s the result of genocide. A genocide still ongoing in Ukraine as we speak. Which is something we should be mentioning a lot more
But… But… Nazis or some shit, its perfectly fine since they are all Nazis for sure. We will save Ukraine with this 3 day operation.
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Duped by the west into wanting protection from their imperialist neighbor? I wonder why they’d want that? 🤔
America being an evil empire doesn’t make Russia justified in throwing half a million lives down the drain like it’s nothing. Ukraine was never expected by anybody to join NATO until Crimea, and even then, most of the West would’ve preferred neutrality for Ukraine. It was a redline for most of NATO as well, because they knew it was more trouble than it was worth. Wannabe imperial powers like Turkey play their own game, even within NATO.
US bad ≠ Russia good. Russia is very, very bad actually.
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How utterly vile of you to call a country cowardly because they don’t toe your ideological line. Have you considered that maybe China is just that much more of a threat right now? That the world isn’t as simple or easy as you want it to be? No, because you’re a pathetic coward who can’t handle the truth.
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Don’t worry! The pesticides have already enacted similar horrors on Mexican farm workers for decades. Add that to the effects of pollution on people who live near freeways, my family is intimately aware about such things. They’ve blamed my autism on it, but I only think my mother’s asthma can be definitively linked…
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No hug. Not until you promise to stop calling countries cowards for playing empires off one another. Not until you stop simping for empires like it’s team sports. Opening your eyes is the only act of kindness I request of you.
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Easy to say from the comfort of your armchair.
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“Trump just wants to save America”. That’s what you sound like.
I am under no impression that Putin wants to save Ukraine. I am observing that what is happening is far worse than if they had agreed to the peace deal they had in 2022, and far far worse than if they simply enforced the minsk II agreement.
It would have been better if Russia had abided by the Minsk II agreement. Better yet, if the Budapest memorandum had been enforced and Russia not invaded its sovereign neighbor to begin with. But power is the only language Russia speaks.
None of which is the primary reason people criticize ml instances, and you know it.
Ukraine desperately wants those bombs. They remember what it was like living under Russian imperialist rule. They remember that Russia genocided 10% of their population the last time they were conquered.
Ukraine desperately wants those bombs
The government of Ukraine wants those bombs to take control over a territory filled with people they are openly hostile to. The people, like all people, want to live in peace.
Do you really think that this particular bourgeoisie democracy, unlike all the others, represents the people? One that has suspended elections and throws people in prison for “questioning Ukraine’s territorial integrity”?
Every single military action the US has taken since WWII, the US has been acting directly contrary to the interests of the people it claimed to be helping, and every single time the US population gets duped into thinking this time they’re there to help. Why do you think this one is different?
What they’re defending against is being raped, murdered, starved and having their children stolen by Russia. All you Tankies always try to distract from and ignore the suffering and mountain of corpses left in Russia’s wake. You don’t get to ignore the 300 thousand children stolen by Russia or the 5 million killed in the Holodomor.
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distract from and ignore the suffering and mountain of corpses
You are the one advocating for more human lives to be sacrificed over some nationalist horseshit. Every bomb we send adds more corpses to the pile. I want peace as quickly as possible.
The Holodomor happened years after Russia achieved their so-called “peace”. The suffering and death in Ukraine will only increase under Russian subjugation. The only way to put an end to it is for Russia to lose and preferably Putin be brought in front of the Hague and publicly hanged for his crimes against humanity.
The holodomor happened to the USSR during wide-spread crop failure, it’s kinda irrelevent to modern Russia.
The suffering and death in Ukraine will only increase under Russian subjugation
There will be similar amounts of suffering and death under the other bourgeoisie democracy run by a literal billionaire. Either would be far, far better for the people than what they are experiencing now.
Putin be brought in front of the Hague and publicly hanged for his crimes against humanity
Yup, same with Zelensky, Biden, Trump, and most every other leader who could stop this and doesn’t.
The only way to put an end to it is for Russia to lose
No, the only way to put an end to it is peace.
“Russia should stop sending bombs to its puppet” is not supporting the US.
I concur. Sadly I do not live in Russia and can’t call up Putin and tell him to knock it off.
You know very well that Putin will knock you off the window if you said that.
Give me his number and I’ll call him. I hear he’s doing things in Georgia, lets see if he comes up to SC to throw me out a window.
That makes it evem more wild that you seem to support him.
It is when those bombs are actively helping to stop Russian imperialism.
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Russia invade inspite of not just agreements, actual treaties, which guarantee Ukraine the liberty to conduct their own foreign policy as they pleased in exchange for their nuclear arsenal.
Except those treaties and agreements were broken by Ukraine and NATO years before the Russian invasion. And every foreign policy expert advised against it at the time. Even Henry Kissinger warned the west was intentionally trying to provoke an invasion from Russia, and not honoring the agreements.
And how where they broken by Ukraine?
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You guys really removed that?
Can you provide a link to a page which shows the text of these agreements? Or maybe the Wikipedia pages of some of the specific agreements you are referring to?
The Minsk Agreements.
So you’ve done the playing dumb part of your script, and legitimizing Wikipedia as a credible source. Now you’ll move onto the part of, ‘actually I know all about those, and here’s why they don’t count.’
You guys need a new script.
Nice job trying to pre-empt any criticism of your position because you know by your own admission that the role of the Minsk Agreements has been debunked repeatedly. That’s also why you didn’t mention them by name to begin with.
But no, I was not going to say that, because that would be engaging in a “did not” “did too” slap fight which will ultimately end up going nowhere. I prefer to take at face value whatever you guys claim, and then ask questions about the details of your position until we get somewhere where you’d have to admit that your position is inconsistent with itself, that you claim two or more contradictory things to be true at the same time. Usually at that point there is either no more reply or some crazy deflection.
So answer me this, if you can: Why did the violation of the Minsk Agreements make Putin decide to do a full-scale invasion of Ukraine instead of more negotiations to stop the fighting? Is peace not the ultimate and most important goal?
There it is. Seriously, you NAFO bots need a new script. The playing dumb part of it makes you stand out like a sore thumb.
You’re still doing it, too. Pretending you’re not aware of any of the facts or historical context outside of your comment. Which if I then bring up, then you’ll suddenly be aware of those too so that you can argue against it. I’ve done this back and forth with you turds too many times to be caught off guard. And you haven’t changed your methodology in a couple of years.
Is the intention that you don’t want to reveal too much incriminating info for Ukraine and the west? Like only acknowledge them to argue against them, and hope they’re not brought up at all?
The historical context is clear enough that there is no need to talk about any of it: the current events are a continuation of centuries of Russian expansionist imperialist aggression. Their excuses may change but the fact of Russian imperialism does not.
Those bombs are blowing up people in Ukraine, statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is.
Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine? Has that been true one single time since WWII?
There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.
statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is
Surely you understand the very different nature of America’s recent conflicts (air strikes on small numbers of militants living among civilians) to the war in Ukraine (frontlines where civilians have been evacuated and every building has been destroyed). Or taking your numbers of 10 to 140 civilians for every enemy combatant, are you suggesting that Ukrainian soldiers have killed on the order of a million to ten million civilians as “collateral damage”?
Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine?
I believe that is irrelevant to the Ukrainians. They are happy to get any support they can to help fight off their would-be oppressors. Whether or not America is interested in improving the conditions for the people of Ukraine, it only takes one look at Russia and then at the EU to see where the common people have a better standard of living.
There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.
Of those three, only Russia can end the war unilaterally with no downsides to any party. Ukraine can only end the war unilaterally if they want to be subjugated under Russian oppression. I fail to see how America could end the war unilaterally. Even if they cut all military support to Ukraine, Ukrainians will keep fighting because they do not want to be ruled by Russia.
Oh, how can Ukraine end the war without essentially giving up and letting Russia win territories through this imperialistic war?
Its only choice is how many of it’s kids they want to send into a meatgrinder trying to hold onto the Russian-speaking territories whose people it didn’t seem to like very much before the invasion, and it seems to like even less now.
There’s no realistic way for Ukraine to push Russia out, let alone deal with the resulting insurgency. Same applies if Russia tried to hold the Ukrainian-majority territories. Actually they’re probably in for an insurgency either way given their conduct.
Lots of words for saying “they can’t”
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Also if an asshole came up to you, shot you in the leg and demanded your house, how would you react when people around you said “just give him the garden and cellar as compromise”
No they absolutely can end the war by agreeing to a peace deal giving up the territories Russia occupies. They came close to agreeing on as much 2 years ago, with Russia ceding much of the territory they occupied at the time, before Boris Johnson changed the equation by pledging unlimited support. Now here we are 2 years later, over a million dead and wounded, UXO littered across the country, entire cities leveled by fighting, the right-wing even more entrenched in both countries, and nothing to show for it.
because capitulation always works … i forget, didn’t we try that before? oh yeah in the 40s… that worked out great
you can’t let the bully get what they want otherwise they won’t stop
Mate, the only thing you have to say is that Ukraine is getting fucked over left and right. Instead you find the strangest ways to twist that into apologizing for Russian imperialist interests.
“America should stop sending bombs to its puppet” is not supporting Russia.
It’s like saying lobbying to continue the usage of fossil fuel is not supporting oil company.
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lobbying to continue the war
Hmm i wonder who started and prolonging the war…
Must be those merican.
