• @TrismegistusMx
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    7 months ago

    Define mental illness, define addiction, define help, define force.

    • @Snapz
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      57 months ago

      Seriously… No hyperbole, I’d imagine the majority of people that would enthusiastically vote for trump in this next electron after he led a violent insurrection to try to end American democracy (and had actual discussed plans for the military to shoot American civilians if the overthrow were successful and there was an opposition movement) actively suffer from a listed disorder and are in need of treatment.

    • @Cryophilia
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      17 months ago

      That’s the whole point of the bill, it gives those definitions. You could read it yourself if you want.

      • @[email protected]
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        37 months ago

        I mean, I don’t disagree with the principle (haven’t read it to see if it’s actually feasible though).

        Either a homeless person suffering from addiction and mental health issues seeks help, and gets better, or they can’t get better and go to prison where they are sheltered and fed and kept off the streets where they probably would die in a few years anyways, or commit a crime that may harm someone and go to prison anyways?

        It depends if the state is willing to pay for that help, because if not it’s just a law to shuttle everyone into prison.

    • @[email protected]
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      127 months ago

      Federal courts have already ruled that you can’t throw people in jail for being homeless, so I don’t see that happening. The headline mentions treatment which doesn’t have to be in-patient necessarily.

      I’m definitely on the fence here as I’m no fan of authoritarianism, but on the other hand I’m no fan of homeless meth addicts living in a clapped out RV on the side of the road, stealing catalytic converters by night and standing in the road shouting at cars by day. Something has to give here as people like this have been taking advantage of this messy situation.

      • @A_Random_Idiot
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        87 months ago

        Federal courts have already ruled that you can’t throw people in jail for being homeless,

        No, that doesnt stop them from making up some bullshit charge though. This is America, afterall.

        • @Cryophilia
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          -17 months ago

          Not really. This is California, which is very different from the rest of America. Especially when it comes to policing the homeless.

  • Tedesche
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    7 months ago

    The new law, which reforms the state’s conservatorship system, expands the definition of “gravely disabled” to include people who are unable to provide themselves basic needs such as food and shelter due to an untreated mental illness or unhealthy drugs and alcohol use. Local governments say current state laws leave their hands tied if a person refuses to receive help.

    The law is designed to make it easier for authorities to provide care to people with untreated mental illness or addictions to alcohol and drugs, many of whom are homeless.

    I work in mental health in another state, and I’ve been wishing for a law like this since I started my career. I don’t believe people who have any sort of mental illness should be forced into treatment, but laws enacted at the behest of rights groups for the mentally ill have gone too far (although it’s certainly better that we have those laws than don’t). Some people are so sick they’re their own insurmountable obstacle to care, and that would be fine if their condition only affected them, but it often doesn’t. For their sakes and that of those around them, I agree some people should be forced to get their issues treated.

    • @TransientPunk
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      777 months ago

      I have a nosy neighbor that also happens to be a social worker. She made my life hell last year by getting cops involved in a situation that didn’t necessitate them, and additionally forced me to go through all sorts of hoops and psychological examinations to prove my state of mind. This law, despite it’s good intentions, makes me super nervous after having gone through that BS

      • @Uncaged_Jay
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        397 months ago

        This should be everyone’s fear, it feels like just anther witch hunt.

        • @RaoulDook
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          167 months ago

          It is rational to fear that this authority would be abused, based on the long history of abuses of authority in the USA.

          We should react this way anytime any law is passed that gives the govt more authority to restrict our freedom.

        • @[email protected]
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          37 months ago

          But the witches actually exist in this scenario. If you’ve spent any time living on the west coast over the past decade, you’ve surely seen these people with uncontrolled mental illness roaming the streets and causing havoc.

          What sort of solution would you propose for people so deep into mental illness that they can’t or won’t get themselves out if it? Demanding that they continue living on the streets isn’t a very humane solution either.

          • @Not_mikey
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            107 months ago

            roaming the streets and causing havoc

            What is havoc to you? I live in San Francisco and the homeless and addicts don’t really bother people outside of them existing , which does seem to bother a lot of people. They do shoplift and car break ins are pretty common but it’s not like they’re running around brandishing knives. Most of them are opiate addicts, and you aren’t aggressive or chaotic on heroine.

            I agree we need more mental health and addiction treatment but you can’t force people into it. If someone is in pain and don’t see a reason to live outside of drugs, locking them up won’t fix that. Either you keep them there forever or they’ll relapse as soon as they get out. We need to address the societal issues causing this instead of the band aid solution of detainment.

            • @Cryophilia
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              07 months ago

              I live in San Francisco and the homeless and addicts don’t really bother people outside of them existing

              Then you’re a goddamn liar because there is no way in hell you live in the city and don’t see the damage (literal physical damage) they do.

              • @Not_mikey
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                67 months ago

                This is from a year ago, did you have this saved?

                It’s a city of 10 million people , crazy fucked up shit is bound to happen, homeless people or not. Here in SF a tech CEO stabbed another CEO multiple times and left them in the streets, you don’t see us trying to detain CEOs.

                • @stangel
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                  -47 months ago

                  I don’t see the point in arguing about this. You said they mostly keep to themselves, maybe a little pretty crime here and there (as if even that is okay)… That has NOT been my experience and I brought one especially-egregious receipt to make my point. The other poster who mentioned clapped-out RVs and catalytic converter theft must also be from LA.

          • @Cryophilia
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            -17 months ago

            If you’ve spent any time living on the west coast over the past decade

            The majority of people in this thread have not, and it shows.

    • @[email protected]
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      7 months ago

      It’s always “I believe that (subordinate group) should get basic rights, but… (and then something about being inconvenienced).”

      It says at the end of the article that there’s already a law that does that for certain diagnoses and at a judge’s discretion. I don’t see why it would ever need to go farther than that. I’ve worked in and been in mental health and addiction facilities and they already use mental health diagnoses and medication to subjugate people living through homelessness and the disease of addiction. Conservatorship is not the answer to someone not being able to pay rent. It will be used to diagnose people who are not mentally ill just to keep them from being an “eyesore.” It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that. You also can’t force someone into addiction treatment and expect it to magically work. It’s their life, they have to want to quit. We’re going to waste so many resources forcing people into addiction treatment and it won’t do anything except to make them resentful of the system. Even worse, if you lock someone away who doesn’t want to quit and their tolerance for drugs goes down, then they get out and use, they will definitely OD. So many people die or nearly die that way after getting out of jails and prisons for victimless crimes like addiction and homelessness.

      The answer is making treatment more available to people. Then giving them a place to live and resources to live on while they find jobs and reintegrate into society. Only having (forced) treatment will accomplish nothing and likely make the problem worse while allowing authoritarianism into California. This law is fucking disgusting, dehumanizing, and scary. We should be ashamed of ourselves as a society that this is how we treat our most vulnerable as a society.

      ETA: This is how available addiction and mental health treatment is to Californians with Medi-Cal: it’s not. Miles of red tape and bureaucracy that people with no resources or transportation are somehow supposed to navigate, just to have an indefinite wait list at the end of it. Ask me how I know. If treatment were made available to meet people where they are, it would be far more effective, if paired with reentry programs that actually treat them like people.

      • @Cryophilia
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        17 months ago

        and then something about being inconvenienced

        Holy privilege. Tell me you’ve never lived in an area with schizophrenic zombies roaming the streets.

        The answer is making treatment more available to people.

        These people do it have the mental capacity to accept treatment. They literally cannot make a decision about anything.

        We’re not talking about someone with depression here, we’re talking about people whose higher brain functions are not working at all.

        You’re looking at this through the limited range of your own mental health experience, not realizing how radically different it is for the level of mental psychosis big-city homeless have.

    • @Daft_ish
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      7 months ago

      You know the church is going to step in and fuck up the chances of these people ever getting real help, right?

      The people with the least won’t have the resources to get proper treatment and religious groups will get license to, “have God fix them.” Next, religious groups will start seeking ways to expand what is considered mental illness applying their own christian morality. Before you know it the gays will be forced into conversion therapy or some archaic equivalent.

      • @Cryophilia
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        17 months ago

        I am reeeeeeally sick of the way every time an article comes out about a California law, someone from Indiana or Mississippi or whatever hellhole comes out of the woodwork to explain how it will be abused because they think all of America is like their own little hellhole.

        • @Daft_ish
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          07 months ago

          Lol at the thought that the religious right hasn’t a foothold in California.

  • @[email protected]
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    587 months ago

    expands the definition of “gravely disabled” to include people who are unable to provide themselves basic needs such as food and shelter

    So if you can’t afford rent in CA, you are gravely disabled.

    Sounds like a ‘great’ idea. All cops have to do is say you misuse drugs or alcohol or get a someone to diagnose you with a mental illness and BAM your no longer free. I see no possible way for this to be abused. /s

    • @lordkuri
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      147 months ago

      Interesting how you dropped the second half of that sentence to try to hammer it into your point about “oh em gee teh gubmint is gunna git me”.

      The new law, which reforms the state’s conservatorship system, expands the definition of “gravely disabled” to include people who are unable to provide themselves basic needs such as food and shelter due to an untreated mental illness or unhealthy drugs and alcohol use.

    • @[email protected]
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      117 months ago

      I agree. While this sounds great on paper, there’s a chance for it to get abused. And we all know that it will end up being abused.

    • @[email protected]
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      27 months ago

      In Canada, we recommend MAID (medical assistance in dying) if you can’t afford food and shelter.

      I wish I was kidding. The government literally recommends you use their suicide chambers if you can’t pay your bills and have a mental illness.

  • 🇰 🔵 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 ℹ️
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    7 months ago

    Forcing people to get help doesn’t help if that help isn’t actually available. I’ve had several issues over the years seeing a therapist because there is so much demand and very few therapists. Most of my appointments are rescheduled 6 months away, multiple times because I show up and the doctor is called away.

    • @A_Random_Idiot
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      237 months ago

      theres few therapists, even less good therapists.

      Good therapists exists, but unless you are incredibly lucky, its a chore and financial burden trying to find them.

      • @TheHighRoad
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        27 months ago

        More like unless you’re incredibly rich you will never be able to afford one.

      • @graymess
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        27 months ago

        Not to mention therapists working in the public sector do not get paid well, have the largest case loads, and get the most severe cases. It’s very easy to burn out within a few years and many quickly move into private practice.

  • @xc2215x
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    427 months ago

    It could be good if it gets mentally ill people help more often. The issue that could happen is if it is used to claim people are mentally ill who are not.

    • @AngryCommieKender
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      217 months ago

      They’re targeting homeless people. This is gonna go bad real quick.

        • @TotallynotJessica
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          27 months ago

          The issue is that being rendered homeless could cause people to develop mental illness. There is a strong correlation between rates of mental illness, and income inequality. As income inequality increases, the percentage of the population with mental health issues increases.

          People who don’t want to fix income inequality and economic hardships are motivated to view mental health issues as the cause of people having economic troubles. They think that if they treat people’s mental illnesses, they’ll be to get a job, stable housing, and economic stability.

          However, the idea of increased mental health issues causing economic hardship begs the question, why are people in certain areas more mentally ill than others? Every individual is unique, and people certainly experience economic ruin from mental illness, but why are the rates higher in certain areas? Researchers could study numerous different variables, seeing if different things explain the correlation between inequality and illness, but it’s still impossible to definitively prove causation.

          The only way to determine causation is through experiments. Simulating economic hardship to see if it causes increased rates of mental disorders would be extremely unethical, and probably expensive. Quasi-experimental studies could test how well mentally ill people do on tests that try to measure ability to work a job, but the measure would need to be perfected over numerous studies, and could have major problems with validity. It’d be a huge undertaking.

          Truthfully, nobody knows for certain if treating mental illness instead of fixing our unequal system will be successful, or more akin to treating the symptoms rather than the disease. I personally think we could fix homelessness by improving the broken housing market, making housing a human right, reducing inequality, and providing mental healthcare treatment all at once. We also need to improve other variables that might be the cause of both inequality and illness. That way we will have the best chances of addressing the cause.

        • @AngryCommieKender
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          -57 months ago

          Oh yeah, we all forgot. This is the “You Show.”

          Piss of back to your cave NIMBY-ist

          • @Bonskreeskreeskree
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            47 months ago

            Wanting to feel safe in your town from violent homeless people high as a kite…now exclusively a nimby trait

          • @[email protected]
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            47 months ago

            This is a very popular perception. I don’t want to feel unsafe in my own back yard. During COVID the number of tents and encampments with high amounts of problems in Toronto public parks made certain ones more or less inaccessible by the public. There was some outcry when they were forcibly removed but overwhelmingly that move was applauded by Torontonians. We got to use our spaces again.

            I really wish we’d bring back institutional supports for the mentally unwell

      • Franzia
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        87 months ago

        People being trapped in mental institutions without just cause is a well documented phenomenon.

        • @[email protected]
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          17 months ago

          I know, that’s the dark joke I was making. If you’re against imprisoning the mentally ill, perhaps you’re mentally ill.

      • JokeDeity
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        27 months ago

        How many other bootlicker quotes do you drop on a regular basis?

  • @[email protected]
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    7 months ago

    Maybe if you hadn’t axed mental health services in the 80s this paradox wouldn’t have arisen.

  • @[email protected]
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    7 months ago

    Forcing people is always the best way to get good results. 🙄

    *** EDIT - Too many here seem to have forgotten that asylums were shut down in the 70’s and mental health patients shunted onto the streets to live without support networks in place.

    Stop trying to recreate those monstrosities.

    • @rtxn
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      427 months ago

      What’s the other option? Brand them as “undesirables” and let them suffer until they either get help on their own or go on a killing spree? People who are steadfast against law enforcement have been calling for better care for the severely mentally ill so incidents don’t have to end with a shootout. Getting them into care is an important step.

      • @TransientPunk
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        157 months ago

        We should create sanctuary districts in every city where they can seek help and rehabilitation, while living free and retaining their dignity.

        ~it’s a Star Trek reference in case you think I’m serious~

        • @rtxn
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          47 months ago

          That was one of my favourite episodes of DS9. I should start watching it again.

        • SeaJ
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          47 months ago

          As long as we make sure Gabriel Gel gets it, we will be fine.

        • themeatbridge
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          277 months ago

          The trouble with incentives is that addiction is stronger.

          Consider an emergency room, where a homeless person has arrived following a cardiac arrest in public. Thr person is revived and recuperating, but they require further help either for mental illness or subtance addiction.

          Currently, the best the hospital can do is refer them to treatment, but they cannot compel a patient to seek treatment. If the person leaves the hospital and heads to their dealer, then they will continue to be a burden on society.

          Treatment and getting better is the incentive. You’re not going to convince someone to give up drugs or alcohol by offering them tax breaks. Free meals work, but then people will show up just to get the meal, and won’t actually participate in treatment, because nobody can “force” them to be treated.

          I honestly don’t know if this law will help with that. I understand the logic of it, but mental health and addiction is an extremely complicated problem. But to say “incentives work better than force” is to ignore the fact that we have incentives, and it’s not working.

          • @[email protected]
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            27 months ago

            Stress is the number one contributing factor to addiction. You know alcoholism is going up in much of the world due to climate change, and going up faster in parts of the world most affected?

            Getting someone into housing is an incentive we haven’t tried. Okay, free housing if you get into treatment and take your meds? It reduces stress too, which makes treatment more likely to work. And demonstrates compassion, making therapeutic relationships easier to form and thus, makes treatment more likely to work.

            Force doesn’t work. You destroy all trust in the therapupitic process before you even begin.

            • themeatbridge
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              107 months ago

              I agree with you, except free housing should be available without conditions. Isn’t the threat of homelessness just another form of coercion? Americans have more than enough existing housing and food production to provide for everyone. We force artificial scarcity into both markets to preserve profits, because it’s harder to raise rents when a free option exists.

              Mental health and addiction are both medical problems. Trust is always an important part of medical treatment, but trust runs both ways. Can we trust people with those issues to seek treatment on their own? Doesn’t society have a compelling interest in treating their conditions?

              I’m not advocating for the police to start rounding up homeless people and dumping them in overburdened psych hospitals. I’m not even advocating for this law. We need far better treatment options, healthcare in general, and economic reform before we should ever expect to address homelessness and mental health. I just don’t think we should take anything off the table when it comes to ensuring people get treatment. Force might work for some people. It might make things worse for others. The goal, however, is worthy of discussion and the methods cannot be dismissed out of hand.