The Culture.
If you lined up and infinite number of Borg cubes in a straight line, how many of them would a single shot of the Death Star destroy before they could adapt? 🤔
This came up a few months ago, and I wasted most of a day figuring it out. Here’s a compilation of what I said at the time:
The Borg’s main advantage is its ability to counter energy weapons. They do this with the Adaptive Shield Matrix:
All phasers are generated on a particular subspace phase compression pulse frequency, whilst torpedo warheads all possess their own shielding which also possesses its own subspace phase compression pulse frequency. Adaptive Shielding works by remodulating the shields to the identical subspace compression pulse frequency of torpedos and phasers…
So, it seems like the Borg’s sheilds adapt to the subspace pulse frequencies of phasers and torpedos. Phasers are a type particle weapon that Gene Roddenberry made up when he realized lasers didn’t work the way he thought they did, and they don’t really have much basis in the real world like lasers or plasma weapons do. The problem is that 99% of the weapons in Star Wars are plasma weapons, except for the Death Star cannon, which is a laser.
Since the Adaptive Shield Matrix specifically works by adapting to subspace frequencies, there’s really no reason to think that their shields would have a distinct advantage over lasers or plasma bolts the way they do phasers. Star Fleet seems to agree, as they theorized plasma phasers would be effective weapons against the Borg in Best of Both Worlds. Picard was also able to easily kill several Borg with hard-light bullets in First Contact, further demonstrating their inability to counter non-phaser weapons.
It also doesn’t seem like the Borg have an innate ability to adapt to enemy weapons. Aside from only countering phaser weapons, the rotating-frequency strategy was pretty effective throughout TNG and First Contact. It seems more like that Adaptive Shield Matrix was just a piece of technology they assimilated rather than an intrinsic ability to counter attacks.
So, if the Borg shields don’t nullify the Death Star’s weapons like they do Star Trek weapons, and they don’t have a special ability to counter enemy attacks, this just comes down firepower. The superlaser should be able to destroy any Borg cube multiple times, and even without the superlaser, they’re massively outgunned. This is 3000 meter ship against a 75 mile wide battle station. Even if the 10,000 turbolaser, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons can’t overpower them (and by the way, it sounds like those, “lasers,” are actually plasma weapons according to wookiepedia, because of course Star Wars can’t be consistent), and the 768 tractor beam projectors can’t immobilize the cube, the 7,000 individual tie fighters would probably overwhelm the it. Hell, if the Death Star is faster, they could probably just smash into them and still survive the damage.
I think the Death Star has this by a mile. I hate to admit it, but I don’t see a win condition for the Borg here.
I mean, after being shot through by the death stars laser weapon, the borg would launch their time travel device so as to go back and include some ridiculous vulnerability in the death stars plans that they could then take advantage of. Say, like a single vent shaft that ran from the outside of the fort all the way to it’s power source 🤣 I also imagine they would be able to get drones aboard. however, I could also see the hivemind being vulnerable to force manipulation tactics. A larger consciousness might be harder to sway, but the power of Darth Vader can’t be summarily dismissed in this capacity. I think Darth would attempt to control them.
Yeah, I suppose time travel could win them the day, but that feels like cheating. I’m not sure boarding party would do much better. Those personal shields the Borg have are…weird. They stop phaser fire like a ships shields, but they don’t stop physical objects (for example, Mr. Worf’s fists) like a regular shield. But there’s no reason to believe that they would stop plasma bolts from a Blaster, so there’s no reason to think a Borg boarding party would get wrecked by a barrage of (admittedly inaccurate) Stormtrooper fire before they could do much damage. Plus the Cube would probably get destroyed before they could send more than one or two waves of drones over.
The Borg would want that technology so after that first cube is destroyed they’d be back with enough firepower to overwhelm the shields and get drones on board. Even if they lost a couple of hundred cubes it would likely be worthwhile.
The Borg have several trillions of drones many thousands to millions of vessels. They can go full Russia tactics with capturing the death star if needed.
If this is the first death star though, they’d just beam some drones aboard while it was busy destroying them.
There were small gaps in the shields of the first Death Star; the Empire believed that this was harmless since only small ships could wiggle through the gaps.
If a small ship can get through then a transporter beam is definitely getting through.
Yeah, the Borg hordes would overwhelm the Death Star. The last time this was posed was as a single Borg Cube vs. the Death Star, so I’m assuming that’s what OP was asking.
I don’t really see how a boarding party is going to help them much, though. Stormtroopers aren’t the most competent soldiers, but Borg aren’t going to be better protected from the plasma in their Blasters than the Cube is from the Death Star’s plasma and laser weapons. It’s possible they could assimilate someone with strategic knowledge of the station or find something useful in their computers, but they’re going to get wrecked before they can pull that off. The cube is also too big to get through the Death Star shields, so they can’t use the exhaust port trick to blow it up.
I don’t see how plasma weapons would do anything. The Borg are probably already adapted to be honest. The Romulans were rocking plasma torpedoes in the 23rd century, and there’s no idea of just sending a bunch of TOS era warbirds against the Borg. The only reason the primary weapon would work is the raw power it has being able to simply overload anything in front of it.
If the Borg personal shields aren’t already adapted to storm troopers weapons they’ll just blast through a few Borg, then they adapt their personal shields to compensate for the stormtrooper weapons.
After that it’s open season on turning the whole crew into drones and subverting the computer systems.
The only thing that might be able to stop them if there was a force wielder on the death star, and they realised what was going on before even they’d be overwhelmed by the sheer number of assimilated crew.
Well, again, their sheild adapting technology very specifically works on phaser and torpedo warheads, but haven’t shown any adaptability to other weapons, and the entry on Memory Alpha entry seems to make this explicit. That doesn’t mean that they don’t stop other weapons, just that they only work like normal shields against other weapons. So, 23rd century warbirds probably wouldn’t be very effective against the Borg, since they’re old, outdated, and probably underpowered tech, but a Galaxy Class Starship with plasma weapons as powerful as normal phasers would probably do well.
So, if the sheilds don’t nullify the Death Star’s weapons, this match up would basically be the same as any large Star Trek ship vs. the Death Star. And since the Death Star is so massive, pretty much any ship is gonna get wrecked. I’m sure the Borg would do fine against a Star Wars ship of roughly comparable size, but the Death Star is almost 100 times larger.
Not sure where you got in memory alpha that they can only adapt to phasers, this is what memory alpha has to say.
The Borg were usually exceedingly quick to adapt; their shields would often nullify nearly any energy weapon, and their weapons could usually penetrate nearly any shield or defense, within minutes
Dude, it was literally the first thing I linked to, and I even quoted the most relevant portions of the entry.
Is that memory beta or something? It’s only reference is the destiny novels.
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I heard an answer to this on a podcast once,
The deathstar could easily one shot a cube, but they would never be able to do it again, because the borg adapt
If the cube is wiped in a single shot, there might not be enough borg left with enough data to adapt. They aren’t adapting magically, they are able to analyze the shot and adjust their shields to block shots.
Ill bet, if they could sneak up on some cubes they could pop a few before the Borg really got wise.
I imagine the first cube would get some drones on the Death Star before being destroyed. It would take some time to assimilate the whole thing, so the Death Star might be able to take a few more cubes before being too far gone, but my guess is the first (or maybe second if the Death Star was lucky) cube would be the end of it.
Fair point, either way the borg always win in the end
Assuming the death star started firing as soon as they encountered each other it still takes about 14 seconds to fire. You can get a lot of data in that time.
You could also beam over a lot ( though you really only need one) of Borg in that time.
It also depends on the parameters of the shot. DS2 was shooting at partial charge to take out ships so there’s less recharge time between shots. If the DS commander did the same to the Borg, they might blow a hole in the Cube without destroying it, and the Borg don’t give a fuck.
They beam in some drones and it’s over.
Deathstar takes first blood very easily, but that would never work twice.
This! Yea the death star could annihilate a cube, but there’s only 1 death star, vs. 20,000 cubes
The Death Star also has a pretty lengthy power-up sequence before it can fire. Good for stationary objects like planets, not stuff that can move at the speeds of a borg cube.
Somehow the deathstar will returm
Can the cubes share information with each other at distance?
If not, I feel like the Death Star surprises the shit out of every cube it encounters.
In VOY they established there are limits to how far they can transmit to the collective, and can be “cut off”. But it’s only under pretty specific circumstances. So if this was in the Alpha Quadrant or the Galactic Core then almost certainly they would be able to transmit the instructions to other Borg. 2nd cube would destroy the Death Star.
Now what’s really interesting is if there’s a Sith Lord aboard like Darth Vader… He could probably shuttle over to the cube and not be harassed, then mind trick the entire collective (as one)? OR what happens when one gets assimilated, Borg Sith sounds pretty fucking dangerous.
I guess it’s also worth considering whether getting vaporized in one shot both A) allows them any time at all in which to analyze, determine an adaptation, and transmit…and B) allows for any meaningful adaptation to be even conceived.
I’m sort of seeing this as the “Dodge this.” scene in the Matrix…and honestly, as long as the DS never leaves a survivor, and shoots first, it wins any and every 1v1.
On the other hand, if there is even one extra cube present, I would think its powers of observation would at least let it start working out an adaptation. Also, eventually, the DS, being run by imperials, is going to decide to play with a cube. Try to learn about it, capture it, etc. Once that happens, the odds shift dramatically against it.
Well the Empire lacks any OSHA standards so they’d totally miss the change in environmental conditions as the Borg slowly assimilates the station…
The first cube is obviously dead. But the Borg will send a decent amount of cubes next time, and even if the shields on the death star can block beaming will have them down and drones on board before every cube is gone.
After that the Borg have a super sphere.
I don’t think even Borg shields can adapt to the main weapon on the Death Star. But as you said, they don’t really need to. Send multiple cubes. They don’t even need to beam over. Borg do fine in vacuum, just throw a bunch of drones at the Death Star, they’ll eventually find their way inside.
Yep, the raw power of the death star overcomes shields. But the Borg don’t care about loosing multiple ships if the prize is worthwhile.
Thinking about it how quickly can the death star even recharge and fire again after the first shot? If it’s not quick then the Borg might only need to sacrifice one cube and a few thousand drones.
Are we just not going to talk about the fact that the cube is made of Legos?
Well the borg know some of the most deadly items in existence are legos so obviously they’ll add that weapon to their arsenal.
Lego bricks! It’s Lego bricks, you scuff looking nerf herder!
Thank you for your helpful comment, I’ve updated my original comment to be even more scruffy
Haha. Well played my good sir
WE NEVER TALK ABOUT THAT. 😣
WE WILL ADD YOUR BIOLOGICAL UNIQUENESS TO OUR… WAIT, YOU’RE ALL IDENTICAL? WTAF??
Sigh — please kill me…
Actually, at that point in the empire, 0BBY stormtroopers were no longer clones
clones were outlawed and the Kamino cloning facilities were destroyed in the Kamino uprising. But, that didn’t stop one certain individual having his own dozens or so clones (based on EU content, not Disney Sequels)
Even in the sequels it seems Papa Palpatine did lots of self cloning
yeah sure, but I’m referring to the Dark Empire :)
They are in space and the cube can approach from the opposite side of the main weapon. The death star would take a long time to rotate the main weapon at the cube and it can keep moving out of the way.
Cube wins.
Death Star might win the battle, but the Borg win the war
Simple. The cube gets one shotted. The Borg Collective, which is linked across subspace, will notice a Cube suddenly going dark. They will send two spheres. The first gets one shotted, as the Death Star is simply too powerful to block its main weapon with adaptium shields. The second sphere beams over drones. The Death Star is assimilated. Resistance is futile. The Borg now have assimilated the technology of a planet killer weapon. Not that it matters. The Borg have the technology to wipe out entire star systems in one go. They choose not to, as that would go against the Identify, Adapt, Assimilate mindset. You can’t ascend other species into the Collective if you vaporise them all.
Depends on who won the initiative roll.
The Borg cube would find the inherent flaw in the Death Star and exploit it. Borg cubes can’t be destroyed easily just through weapons fire because they’re self-repairing and have adaptive shielding.
I guess even if the Death Star were able to destroy a single Borg Cube, that would be it at most.
I would say so. Also, Borg Cubes are decentralized, which makes them harder to cripple, let alone destroy.
Well, the Death Star can destroy a planet, so I’m thinking they could take out a single cube.
Imagine the energy required to destroy a planet…
But if there’s more than one cube, I’m guessing they’re fucked.
But what happens if Vader were assimilated?
I guess that depends on whether or not force powers work a long time from now in a galaxy right, right here.
Yeah, they used to say that about queer people too.
Dark side pride!
Dare to be different, I guess:-D.
AFAIR the force only works in that galaxy, rendering Force Users incapable of their super natural powers outside or heck even influence those that come without
meaty chloriansmidichlorians (Vuuzhan Vong).Fun fact, did you know that there is actually now a type of prokaryote genus named after the midichlorians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midichloria
Didn’t Ahsoka show that they worked in that other galaxy they went to? It was not an especially good show IMO so I didn’t exactly commit it to memory.
We haven’t seen the Borg using generic engineering AFAICR, but it seems like something they would do. Assuming midichlorians are canon, I think the Borg could discover and replicate them. Surely one of the species they assimilated had bioengineering mastered.
generic engineering
Oh, never stop working badly, autoincorrect! 🤣
What fun.
We haven’t seen the Borg using generic engineering AFAICR
spoiler
They did in Picard Season 3 (which retroactively told us they were doing it as far back as Best of Both Worlds)
Oh right. I totally blocked that out.
that was basically the plot of Star Wars: The Bad Batch.
The best geneticists in the universe (the same who make the clones) couldn’t, but they were getting close, in theory. Could the borg? Maybe. Eventually.
Definitely a two parter.
The death star shoots a beam so if the Borg cube was insulated well enough they could just let the death star drill a hole through it.
The planet killer shot is bigger than a Borg cube. In a DVD scene where the Death Star fills the entire screen, a Borg cube would be 1 pixel.
Yeah I suppose I didn’t really think of that. I always forget how big the death star was meant to be.
So all the Borg needs is a superstar flyboy hero type in a little one manned spacecraft with a little energetic torpedo to fly an impossible space battle against thousands of TIE fighters, fire his way to the Death Stars surface, fire his torpedo in an exact location and blow up the entire thing on his own.
If you go by the screenshots of the movie when it shot Alderaan, the laser blast would envelope the entire cube.
