Actual comment proving it’s bullshit: https://github.com/rhinstaller/anaconda/pull/7074#issuecomment-4556782893
But the PR is still merged. What does that mean. They just accepted it anyway? 😢
Edit: it was reverted, I hear ya 🙏🤟
Yeah, I was reading the comment before and anyone with a vague awareness of this stuff should have called bullshit immediately.
Preserving the argument seemed an innocuous enough change though, so I could see why it was accepted, but the explanation was bafflingly stupid.
But people who don’t know eat it up. Sounded possible (until they claimed the system crashed and could not log the error, despite a log entry belt there that they ostensibly cite as the issue…).
I just don’t understand the workflow with these people.
You know how people say “don’t run a command you are given or find online unless you know exactly what it does”?
Why would anyone accept/merge a PR from an LLM unless they knew what the consequences were, or verified its claims. I just will never get this trust in LLMs, given I know even vaguely how they work.
I just will never get this trust in LLMs, given I know even vaguely how they work.
That’s probably a good stance to have. I just had an AI hallucinate the hell out of an answer and tell me 3 different times the wrong thing. I took a step back, started a new chat, and changed my question to be less specific and more general and the very first thing it spit back was bang on right.
This is just in regards to figuring some shit out in a video game, it’s alarming to me how much trust people are putting into these LLMs and the AI tech. Just a huge bubble that’s going to wreck our markets when it bursts. Eventually venture capitalists (ew) do want a return on investment - and that just is not going to happen.
I think the great AI bubble burst, whenever that happens in the next 1 to 3 years, will make the dot com crash and 2008 housing crash look like peanuts and that’s gonna be real bad for lots of people.
But hey, the earth keeps on spinning, we’re just along for the ride.*
*Unless you’re a filthy rich member of the borgeousie, in which case, for the love of God have your tech buddies reign this shit in.
It’s gonna suck.
We bought an apartment right before the Ukraine war started. It was before the construction of the building so we had to wait a few years before moving in. Had to pay a lot more interest than we had planned after the war broke out. Add the pandemic to that as well.
And now we have an AI bubble about to burst right when we’re looking to maybe buy a house.
FML, this world isn’t how I imagined it would be when I was growing up.
Yeah I’m in the USA so idk if you’re here or not too but yeah … As an elder millennial the world is not how I imagined it’d be when I was a kid.
I mean, I got pretty jaded pretty quick growing up so I’ve always been a bit pessimistic but maybe more so I’m realistic. I hoped things would get better when we were at least trying to tackle some issues with global climate change - now it feels like we’re giving up and just marching towards even more destruction of the planet.
That was 20+ years ago … I always imagined that humanity would probably turn this place into a Hive World but I desperately want to be wrong about that. So far we’re trending in that direction.
I’m not in the US but this shit hits globally, especially the Ukraine war which is closer to me here in Europe.
I’m at least lucky to be driving an EV and not being affected so much by the gas prices, which are now back to peak pandemic/Ukraine war prices.
Had a friend telling me they filled half a tank for like $90. Pretty crazy. Meanwhile charging from 20–90% is like $15 for me.
Well, in this case, the actual change is pointless, but also relatively harmless. If the user puts “split_lock_detect=” during install, then it just carries it forward into the installed environment.
It’s frankly a bit weird that they assume a kernel argument during install would not carry over, except in select circumstances. I get it for parameters like “here’s a kickstart file” or “here’s the net configuration to boot with”, which would be filtered out via a blacklist, but they have a whitelist and assume most parameters should be ignored.
But anyway, I can see someone looking at the code change, not recognizing why someone would want that argument, but shrug and say “sure, simple enough, it won’t impact the vast majority of people and those that bother for whatever reason will just see it carried forward”.
But clearly it wasn’t something anyone wanted as it was later reverted, and not kept in because it was supposedly harmless.
I get what you’re saying though. I’m just glad someone in those comments actually analyzed the situation instead of putting their trust in the charismatic LLM. Those people still exist!
Funny part is that if it just stated “sometimes the user needs this argument, and if they need this argument for install they will need it to boot”, they might have shrugged and let it slide. In trying to overexplain, it betrayed that there was no actual understanding behind it.
That’s what happens when you don’t actually understand the change and just listen to whoever is posting it. The disingenuous thing about LLMs is that they present their hallucinations with full confidence in a charismatic way. No matter the source, that is how anyone can mislead other humans, we’re just so extremely susceptible to it.
we’re just so extremely susceptible to it.
Judging by the leaders of the world throughout history — yes we are indeed. And it’s so sad.
Looks like it was reverted shortly after the comment you posted.
I didn’t notice that. The fact that Redhat is merging random crap is scary.
Well, this case the actual little ‘code change’ is pointless, but harmless, so not so scary. The rationale is stupid because the purported root cause makes no sense against the behavior, but preserving a custom boot parameter added to install to also apply to the installed OS is pretty milquetoast.
Not really, it matches the Redhat software quality that we had a joy to experience for the last 10+ years (systemd, pulseaudio, Gnome, …)
GNOME is getting bad but in my experience systemd is just drama (and fine) and pulseaudio is still just fine
What would you say is low quality in those projects you listed there?
Also didn’t know Redhat developed those.
How long have you been around in the linux world? All of them were absolute dogshit when they came out and everyone complained (for Gnome, that means Gnome 3), but redhat kept pushing them anyway. For instance, when pulseaudio was new it caused crackles, noise, high cpu etc. everywhere, but they used their business connections to have vendors support pulseaudio exclusively, which meant you had to install it if you wanted to use Skype or for various games, even though ALSA was (and is) just fine. Nowadays it gets replaced by pipewire.
I guess I don’t need to explain the systemd drama; it has gotten much better, but what still sucks is that it drops you into a rescue mode when it can’t mount some filesystem that is not even necessary for boot (e.g. /mnt/data). And when you do not have a root password set up, but use
sudofor everything, you are screwed because systemd demands the root password nevertheless, meaning you gonna need to boot from a live usb or similar just to fix one line in fstab. That is the stupidest shit imaginable.How would business connections work? And it was only problematic on some systems, and only for a while
the audio situation before it was a total fucking disaster lol. The only real f up was no low latency really which pipewire now fixes apparently
And systemd consolidated and fixed everything too
Credit where credit is due. Writing a systemd script was so much easier than initd and it resolved so many race conditions and such
People just don’t like change. It’s the same when Wayland. People are pretending like x11 wasn’t problematic 😂
The distros didn’t choose this stuff because of business connections lol. And I’d love to see what red hat offered other distros to cause them to switch(I’m sure you have receipts)
Ubuntu even had upstart and even they dropped it eventually
I’m a user for about 20 years.
I must be lucky. I had no issues with pulseaudio. In fact I thought it was so wonderful how you could hear multiple applications at the same time!
I thought gnome 3 was really cool as well. I didn’t use it as long as I did 2, but that’s because I found out about tiling window management (and later scrolling window management). But I liked the design of Gnome 3, not sure why. Felt modern, like a bold step in a modern direction. 😊
Systemd I just have no feelings about. I’m not well-read about the drama or how or why it’s a badly designed system. I don’t write my own units or whatever. I just start/enable and stop services. 😅
But these were just examples. Maybe you mean more stuff have been bad coming from Redhat.
In fact I thought it was so wonderful how you could hear multiple applications at the same time!
That was possible with ALSA and the “dmix” plugin years before pulseaudio came out.
Looks like it was reverted later?
I’ve recently had to begin dealing with this type of crap at my job in the past month, and it’s infuriating.
Testers using LLMs to analyze logs, said LLMs cockily composing a multi-page ‘bug report’ stating the supposed cause, spewing a metric tonne of mostly irrelevant context and gaslighting with authoritative-sounding conclusions about the root cause of the issue; and since it sounds so damned confident in its verbose hallucinations, I have to waste precious time explaining to the test team and my manager why the report is mostly or entirely wrong.
Goddamn, I am so ready to retire. Let these “dark factory” advocates bury themselves in their models’ slop. There will be a reckoning someday for this I swear; and if, someday, a company comes to me to clean up the mess “AI” has wrought, I will demand 3-4x my regular salary to clean it up, or, if I am financially content in retirement, I will simply tell them to go fuck themselves and lay in the bed they have made.
I’m with you, but so so far away from retiring.
Silver lining is that the company refuses to pay for more than included GitHub copilot tokens. They are currently in denial and saying folks can just use the cheap models to build management’s dream of “native agentic workflows”, but I fully expect them to have to face the reality that people will get fancy tab completion and the occasional prompt and that’s it. I can deal with that volume.
But still after each model release I go to use it and save examples of it falling on its face. Because each time a new model launches management is convinced that the llms don’t make mistakes anymore. If they just said it is getting better that would be one thing, but they are always convinced that new LLM was when all the issues were fixed.
Working on open source has been tougher, since other people have blown budget on making harder to understand bug reports and pull requests.
tell them to go fuck themselves and lay in the bed they have made.
Wouldn’t that be oh so satisfying. 🤤
My company loves having people shooting out vast amounts of PRs to other teams with surface level fixes to things we’ve been working on for months. You can tell none of them have been tested and only like 50% of them work. It’s infuriating.
Oh yeah, that reminds me of yesterday. There was a problem and I was asked to look together with a guy from another team. The other guy was spinning out and spouting all sorts of wild ass guesses about the behavior and talking and talking about why it might be happening and why it calls for a change that would have been massively a pain in the ass for the user, but in principle would solve the issue if implemented, and pressuring me to make those changes right that second.
I said just wait a moment, gave a patch that just simply fixed the problem, explained the actual root cause, why it was a very quick fix, and used the balance of the time to improve performance because the experience was slower than I liked, even if the customer had not complained about it (something took about 2 minutes that should have been near instant, but they just “assumed that’s the way it is”).
No AI involved whatsoever, but a very AI like behavior of spouting nonsense that sounds right and just shotgunning off some design in hopes of it doing something, no matter how messy.
Just an example of why AI is so “exciting” in the tech industry, so many are already used to just guessing without understanding and hoping it works.
Wow what a massive waste of everybody’s time.
Yeah, LLMs are gonna spin their wheels hard when it comes to testing anything at the kernel/os level, if you dont have automated testing with a virtual machine setup to actually be able to replicate a bug, you 100% just cannot test anything they produce or say
As soon as you have the ability to go “Okay we have a failing test, make it pass”, the LLMs get a lot less stupid, because instead of just randomly fumbling around and guessing, they have actual feedback to iterate on and can actually chew on it til they fix the issue or give up.
Not just automated testing but, for CodeGen to really work ‘agentic’ like:
- You need that automated test case to trigger the misbehavior 100% of the time (often, the act of figuring out how to trigger the misbehavior means you already know the fix, but not always)
- That automated test case needs to be succinct and as much as possible, feed only the problematic output back to the CodeGen. CodeGen can easily get distracted by irrelevant input
- That automated test needs to be very quick from time to code change to test case completion. Even with everything just right, expect the CodeGen to basically thrash around guessing things that sound right but to no avail. Most attempts summed up as: "Ok, the problem is absolutely caused by <plausible but useless prose>, and here is the definite fix <code changes that do nothing at all for the error> and it is complete but just double checking… <test fails> Ok, that didn’t quite fully fix it… see next attempt. So a long test case can make it take an eternity as the CodeGen has to wait and run it over and over and over again, while a human might actually reason through it.
- You need to let the token hose go. It’s guessing and it can take quite a few guesses to get right.
- Be prepared for pointless code changes along the way. It makes guesses and often leaves the wrong guesses in, doing nothing at all to help the problem, but potentially having side effects. It decides that while it didn’t work, it must have been a part of the solution, and that it must be left in.
- Consequently, you better have an amazing test suite to capture the likely side effects of those spurious changes, or be prepared to unwind the progress and extricate the result manually.
Absolutely 100% all of this, though with a lot of other tricks like caveman mode and careful skill files and helper scripts to help the agent quickly surgical extract out just the useful output, you can substantially reduce token burn and improve its memory.
As well as carefully having it rollback changes everytime a fix doesn’t work, and having ut keep a markdown file log of each fix it tried and the results, so it can review each thing it tried previously.
All this and my ultimate conclusion has been that it’s nicer to just use it in targeted scenarios.
If I know it’s the shirt of thing it can knock out in one go without too much code to review while probably not failing, sure. If I’m not sure and there’s a misbehavior that I know will be tedious to sort out, but that it might sort out, then I’ll at least give it a couple of attempts.
If it would take more than a couple of tries, I’ll just go ahead and do it myself. It can complete along the way and I might prompt up a few lines here and there, but I’ll just think through an observed bug rather than endure the codegen grasping at straws.
Also, I’ve seen where it avoided the behavior, but upon review the fix illustrated to me what was wrong, but also that it was absolutely the wrong fix that failed to address a broader underlying issue that would crop up later.
So I’m not on board with the “agentic pipeline” approach. For the same reasons I’ve almost never found a human developer I trusted. Of course the developer behaviors that inspired that mistrust also help me understand why so many people are relatively comfortable with the concept.
I’m not a programmer, but isn’t reproducing a reported bug step 1?
Reproducing the bug with an automated test is harder, its code you can run that tests your other code.
But allows you to just 1 click run it and get a yes/no “is this still broken” output without having to manually reproduce it by hand each time.
Whats important is this is in the domain of what LLMs can actually work with, the output of the test is something they can parse and iterate on until it works.
They execute the command to run the test, check the output, and keep working til the test passes.
They can add additional tests to help isolate the problem, or strip down the existing test until its doing the absolute bare min steps to reproduce, in order to narrow the scope of whats causing it.
But when your test involves stuff running in the kernel of an OS, your automated tests meed to effectively be code you write that bootstraps a virtual machine up and manipulates and observes that second machines kernel…
You can do it, but its one of the most complicated forms of automated tests to design and run!
Please let’s avoid the term “clanker” here, it’s part of an awful meme that applies racist rethoric and trops to robots. I assume you have no such intention and are just using it as a derogatory term for AI, but please use a term that isn’t tied to these communities.
AI isn’t a person, its software. Go be offended elsewhere.
I don’t care about AIs, I care that in many of these memes they appear to be used as stand-ins for black people, witg Clanker taking the role of the N-word. I am not offended on behalf of AIs, which I hate, else I wouldn’t be here. I am offended on my own behalf as a black person.
I’m going to take a random shot in the dark here, but … American, right?
Obviously just a troll.
Not every opinion you disagree with is a troll. What I say is well documented. Even if you look at the examples of “clanker” memes on knowyourmemes, it’s clear they’re just roleplaying racism.
And the point I’m making has been made multiple times by multiple people. here in a 34 minutes video essay Here in the magazine Reveille (which I didn’t know about before searching just now, but I agree with what they say on this specific issue)
You don’t have to agree with me or with them, but you can’t dismiss it as “trolling”. it’s a genuine view held by many and defended by arguments, some of which I’ve mentioned and none of which you’ve answered to.
It’s not racism because it’s not about race. It’s disrespect against something that isn’t even alive. Even if it were alive it wouldn’t be discrimination because we dislike the whole and not separate entities because of different characteristics. So I do not agree with you, and I’m not going to waste time clicking those links. I’m dismissing it as trolling because if you truly believe that it’s offensive towards anybody else than the CEOs raking in the cash, that’s completely mental. Or you have an “AI girlfriend”, that’s possible too, and also completely mental.
I was going to disagree with them but roleplaying racism is exactly what it is. The way people say clanker is exactly the way people say nigg3r. You are choosing to be ignorant and launch ad-hominan attacks at someone trying to appeal to your senses. That is the kind of person you are. Regardless of what is true or false you are not qualified to having discussions of right or wrong in the first place.
What do you not get when I say it is NOT on AI’s behalf that I’m getting offended? if anything, it’s you lot that anthropomorphize it. Because talking about a non-human thing you hate doesn’t require a slur. In fact a slur only makes sense for something you treat as a human.
I can understand that the use case for “clanker” intended here is just a dismissive term for talking about LLMs. But that is not the way it is used in many of the memes that popularised it. These memes are not about LLMs. They are set in a future where robots act like people and are treated like black people in a segregated state. Memers are roleplaying segregated US or some other racist society, just switching black people for robots, in what is clearly as thinly veiled exercise at racism. You don’t have to trust me or watch the video essay, just look at tghe knowyourmemes page that describes it in a neutral tone. That is what this specific word is tied to. I don’t mind other equally dissmissive words like “slop-machine” or “slop-generator”, because they aren’t used in this way. These are words actually made to refer to LLMs by describing what they do.
But using the word “Clanker” will always conjure up thoughts of the type of content that popularised it, even if that is not the intention.
Is there any indication that increasing the use of“clanker” makes society more racist? One could argue by finally making the target of a racist-style slur a robot is actually uniting humanity together against a common enemy.
Will racist appropriate it like they do everything else? Probably, but if that use isn’t semantically dominant, there isn’t a real problem.
Second, there is a tendency to view hatred negatively. Whether you like it or not, there is a permanent population looking to hate something. If you don’t give them something to hate, your enemies will–and it will likely be you.
No.
Colour me dubious. Really, really dubious.
Doubt all you want, I’m not sending you an ID.
Are we just attempting to connect a completely unrelated word to racism now in order to be offended now? I hope your next call to some companies support hotline is answered by a fucking clanker.
https://www.dictionary.com/culture/slang/clanker
What does clanker mean?
Clanker is a derogatory term for robots and artificial intelligence that perform tasks once done by humans. (A clanker can technically include everything from a chatbot to the handy robot vacuum in your living room.)
…
The 2008 animated series Star Wars: The Clone Wars, for example, helped to popularize it in online fandom circles, as well as onscreen in the series. Clanker is considered an onomatopoeia, thought to be named after the clanking sound of the metal droids in Star Wars.
On the very page you link to:
People use the term clanker both online and in person to comment either seriously or lightheartedly on the rise of AI. Some oppose using the term, however, because they say it perpetuates other slurs throughout history.
There is also this text shown as an example:
…with the upsurge of AI and AI-related technology (robots, for example), people have been going around calling said technology “clanker” as a slur… I know it’s probably [just] a joke […] but I can’t help but feel like it’s incredibly tasteless. @Informal_Radish_1891, r/blackladies subreddit, August 1, 2025
Now that’s interesting isn’t it ? Wonder what Informal_Radish finds so tasteless about it ? Here, I found the post in question. Unsurprisingly, she and some of those who replied echo the same concerns I mentioned.
So you’re saying offending LLMs is racist …?
I am not. It is fine if you don’t feel like reading the comments entirely, but then you shouldn’t be answering to what you assume it says either.
Fixed for you
Thank you!
How is “spell checker” better than “clanker”? It just swaps one word for the other.
btw my browser spell checker does not recognize the word “clanker”.
It changes everything, I didn’t have a problem with what was being said, just with the use of this word.
I have extensively explained why I find the use of this word problematic, including links that explain this word’s origin and the reasons why it’s controversial, feel free to read my other comments.
