cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/20091173
I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
When talking about someone, is using the commonly accepted neutral “they” allowed, or is it considered non-tolerable misgendering?
It’s fine by me, but I’m not sure how other moderators (or admins) feel about it
Not personally affected, but I saw someone instantly permabanned with reason “misgendering” for a comment talking about “drag”'s behavior but using “they”.
Not warned. Not comment deleted with “please use pronoun at all times”. Just bam.
If the general stance is that reaction can be “up to the admin”, that’s a bit… minefield-y.
I understand that this might seem problematic. We (the mods of 196) are only partially in control of what is removed and who is banned, due it being hosted on blahaj.zone.
All good, thanks for explaining. :)
Lemmy.world admins are sociopaths mad with their own power, so that’s an awesome policy. This is why I block the whole shitty instance.
While true, there are other instances out there.
I’d have to see the comment and context to pass judgement, but I can see how a mod might see using “they” to refer to someone who doesn’t use “they” in a context about how that person doesn’t use “they” as intentional misgendering instead of accidental misgendering.
Thanks. It was surprising to see it interpreted that way, especially given the context (talking about, not to, an obvious troll), but not a difficult rule to adhere to once it’s clear.
No you didn’t
Why are you saying that?
Just shitting on a discussion like that adds nothing.
Or if you do know the comment in question I was referring to and I missed some context that wasn’t visible in the modlog, please let me know.
I’m saying that, because I’m the instance admin, and I don’t permanently instance ban people for a singular comment using “they” in regards to someone who is explicitly ok with they…
I have no idea which comment you were referring to, but I do know that your representation of what you saw is not what actually happened…
It’s a useful feature of language for ‘they’ to be a valid default you should always be able to fall back on.
I don’t even know who any of you are on Lemmy, and I don’t care to. I’m rarely ever even paying attention to your names to begin with.
This is a big part of it, to be honest. Dragonfucker eagerly takes offense when people don’t use the “drag” pronoun, but most of the time users aren’t even looking at handles, and just defaulting to “they” as a general-use pronoun.
It depends on the person. If the pronouns you are using for someone is upsetting them and they make that clear, don’t keep using them. If the only pronouns you can use make you uncomfortable, then simply don’t interact with the person in question. And if the person in question is trolling or otherwise misbehaving, report them without doing so in a way that ignores their pronouns.
Are you accepting that this is in fact misgendering, but still asking whether it’s an acceptable form of misgendering?
I believe they specifically meant when you don’t know the person’s gender/pronouns.
I am assuming it as “not adding gender to the sentence”. Neutral. Leaving it out. Not misgendering. It is how people have always talked about someone when the gender is either unknown, irrelevant, or hard to assume.
I am respecting a site or community’s rule that this is not the case on their space, but it’s such a deviation from the norm that I want it to be clear.
The qualifier “non-tolerable” was clumsy. I was trying to ask if it fell more on “honest mistake, but not allowed” or “assumed to be an intentional transphobic trangression”.
Understandable, but
Your later comment suggests you have a particular user in mind, in which case that user’s pronouns are known, relevant, and require no assumption.
It should be about respecting the individual(/system/thing), not just respecting a rule?
It doesn’t sound like an honest mistake. Maybe it was from the user you mentioned who got banned, but it sounds like you’re trying to see if it’s okay for you to do it on purpose.
But maybe I’m misunderstanding! I would like to be
Thanks for responding! I hope you have the patience to help me understand a bit more. :)
I guess we differ on whether you can respectfully refer to someone without gendered language?
Meaning, the mistake was assuming you could be neutral, not on not knowing the requested gender.
E.g. in academia (at least in my country) we tend to talk about authors of a particular paper as “they” whether they are one, several, male, female etc, even if you know their gender. It is consided respectful, unassuming and inclusive.
Do you think it is disrespectful to e.g. say “I love my partner, they bought me legos for christmas” when talking about my spouse to a colleague even I know she’s female? Where my motivation is to not have gender in the conversation?
Of course! Thanks for asking and being open ☺
Yeah I think this is totally normal and okay, but if the particular paper in question, e.g., is about gender, and the author writes about their unique gender, I think it would be inappropriate/disrespectful to not use their preferred pronouns°
It definitely depends on the person and the culture. Some people, cis or not, feel a strong internal sense of their gender, and may feel misrepresented when referred to with neutral pronouns. (Further reading °if I were writing a paper and referenced this author, I would be sure to use Their preferred pronouns, because Their pronouns are known and relevant (They/Them, Capitalized))
I’m quite queer and have facial hair, so when I refer to my partner with neutral pronouns, people assume she’s a man, and then she has an uncomfortable first interaction with those people when they meet her, and wonders if I’m embarrassed to be in a relationship with a woman.
Personally, if I hear someone specific being referred to with they/them pronouns when their preferred pronouns ought to be known, I assume they’re non-binary, trans, or at least some sort of queer
Ultimately, ‘they/them’ pronouns aren’t entirely neutral. Those pronouns imply personhood, can strip away identity from some, and are an identity for others
Thanks again! I’m feeling a bit different about the exact lines here, but it helps me a lot to understand why and where it might hurt others.
People who take their time to respond thoughfully like you do, make online spaces much easier to navigate.
What an impressive way to phrase that. I haven’t heard such intentional language since my social work program lol
You’ve demonstrated this better yourself than I did imo, so thanks for that!