- cross-posted to:
- asoiaf
- cross-posted to:
- asoiaf
Apologies for the slightly off-topic post…
It’s not looking good, folks…
George R R Martin confirms he hasn’t written anything for the 2 remaining A Song Of Ice And Fire books since 2022.
He wishes that they were finished.
The last published book in the series, A Dance With Dragons, was published in July 2011, now 13 years ago.
Obligatory song that’s now 12 years old… https://youtu.be/j7lp3RhzfgI
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Just make sure that Martin takes decent notes so that Sanderson can be tapped to bring the story home. Sanderson did a marvelous job finishing Robert Jordan’s giant story.
I love Sanderson, he is my favorite fantasy author, and you are correct about his marvelous job finishing WoT, but he is just not the right fit tonally for ASOIAF. He doesn’t even write swear words, and GRRM’s books are fairly liberal with the fucks and the cunts. I would however be in favor of Joe Abercrombie or someone with a bit of a darker bent to their writing taking over if needed.
He doesn’t even write swear words
Kelek’s breath, man. He swears all the storming time.
Rust and ruin, I knew someone would bring up this crem.
Not to mention his Mormonism may be at odds with the sex scenes.
Just add more women - polygamy was all the rage in Mormonism back in the day.
Abercrombie would be a great fit. Another good one would be Ed McDonald
I would fuck with an Abercrombie takeover so hard.
On the other hand, if you let Sanderson do it we would have the whole series finished and published within 18 months of GRRM passing it on.
People are going to gnash their teeth and rend their garments over those books no matter what.
I hear he plans to bring in Patrick Rothfuss to pick up where he left off and also not finish the story.
I was perfectly fine with the amount of annoyance I felt before I read this comment but you just had to bring up another unfinished series didn’t you? Now I’m all flustered.
Ugh. That one hurts. Doors of Stone… where you at?
Brando Sando has answered the question a bunch of times, and said he’s not interested at all. Also, GRRM previously said he would never allow it to be finished by anyone else. Who knows? Maybe the publisher will force it.
Also, GRRM previously said he would never allow it to be finished by anyone else
If I remembered correctly, Jordan had also expressed similar thoughts, look how that turned out.
If he really wanted it to remain unfinished he could have pulled a Pratchett and have his hard drive steamrolled.
(Though, to be fair if you really want your data gone you should probably use thermite.)
Or just drill a few holes in it, then remove the disks from the drive and microwave them for 10 minutes
Or just drill a few holes in it
That isn’t always as effective as you’d think, especially with SSDs…
microwave them for 10 minutes
Yeah, that’d probably do it (though I’m not sure what it’d do to your microwave.
Thermite is guaranteed to destroy your data (and probably the floor, or the floor and the table if you’re dumb enough to do it on a table, and anything too close to your data… but that’s besides the point, the data will be unrecoverable, that’s the point).
Joe Abercrombie would be my vote if someone was doing it.
Sandersons books all feel like superhero meets fantasy, and he’s too much of a choir boy to match Martin’s tone.
Sandersons … too much of a choir boy to match Martin’s tone
I’d agree, it’s not an ideal match. But another talented, perhaps up-and-coming writer (as Sanderson sort of was at the time) could do a good job.
I think the same matter of authorial obligations pertains in that case
https://mastodon.social/@IlluminatiGanga/112993667854482371
but it’s a common society wide problem, Authors don’t meet their obligations to readers, Netflix does not meet obligations to fans, and companies does not meet obligations to consumers.
Sanderson did a great job, but my only critique was that the Tower of Genji part seemed rushed. The build up to that was almost as important as the Last Battle.
Also, I’ve read the series nearly 3 times and I stand by this statement: Fuck Faile. Fuck Perrin. Useless cunts
I liked Perrin a lot…until Faile showed up in the first place.
But I can’t argue your statement.
A whole book spent hunting for her? C’mon
I’m with you though he had so much potential in the beginning. His overall story is cool, but I just couldn’t get past RJ forcing me to read a whole book of nothing but Perrin tying knots in a strip of leather.
No mention of the rush of the ending? Who WAS Elan and why the link to Rand? So many questions left
The ending was pretty fast but it hit a lot of the points it should have. I don’t remember Elan since it has been a while and I’m neck deep in Malazan.
The link with Rand: i am guessing you mean what happened to him at the end? That makes sense if you recall him crossing balefire streams with Mordin in Shadar Lorgoth
Yes elan is moridin. They have a sit and chat in one Rands later visions, and even resemble each other as I recall.
Sanderson did a great job, but my only critique was that the Tower of Genji part seemed rushed. The build up to that was almost as important as the Last Battle.
I don’t think the rushing was Sanderson’s fault, but Jordan’s for leaving so much unfinished. My understanding is that when Jordan died, Sanderson was asked to write the “final book”. When looking at the material that remained to be written Sanderson said it needed way more than one more book. He ended up writing three, but I wonder if the material may have called for five. Sanderson had his own stuff he wanted to write and didn’t want to live for more than three-book-years-worth in Jordan’s universe. I can’t blame Sanderson for that.
Oh, I’m not saying I’m displeased at all - I’m just saying, that in a perfect world, I would have liked to have had him spread out the writing a bit more. You’re absolutely right - he had his own shit to do. He did an amazing job, all things considered. He also did us WoT fans an HUGE HUGE solid, and finished the damn thing when there was next to no hope that it actually would be finished.
I personally wonder if Jordan wrote himself into a corner with the Tower of Genji. The magic system and tone didn’t really match the rest of the WoT universe. If you look too closely at it, it raises all sorts of nasty continuity questions for the universe as a whole. The Tower of Genji smells like a deus ex machina.
Sanderson is genuinely a pillar of modern fiction
writes a lot, anyway
One does not tap Sanderson anymore. Sanderson taps the zincmind that he spiked from Martin.
Think GRRM has said when he dies he’s not letting anyone finish his work and his wife said she’d stand by that.
I’d like to see if the writing can salvage GoTs ending but I gotta feeling GRRM gave up because it doesn’t
You think the ending of the show sucked? Imagine how he felt watching that shit.
I would suggest that it was the broad outline of the same ending he planned and shared with DnD just implemented badly. He’s probably more pissed that they made his ending so unpopular by completely botching the landing as he now can’t use that same ending without risk of rejection. I still maintain it would have sucked as an ending even if it had been implemented at the same standard as series 5, but what we got made it far far worse.
Yeah, he basically spoiled the ending with the tv show and now he needs to come up with a new one. Not that he actually will. He’ll never finish the series
I’d be happy if he did the same ending again, just with his characteristically excellent writing
I understand, it would probably make sense narratively, but he would receive a lot of backslash.
The reason he hasn’t finished (or isn’t even trying any more) is because he’s written himself into a corner. There are a lot of loose ends and parts that don’t make sense, and that’s not even counting the parts that the show left out!
He probably felt dread, because he was probably hoping that they’d fix some of the mistakes he made, and make writing the book simpler.
He fucked himself over by not having the time skip.
He probably couldn’t see the tv due to the big pile of money sitting between him and the screen covering his view.
I think he was fine with it, watching from his hot tub filled with money.
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Apparently being constrained by deadlines turned him into a procrastinating, spineless teenager.
So no one read the article? Just the headline?
This references a statement he made in 2023 which itself references a statement he made in 2022 saying he had the same number of pages completed.
This is an assumption that he has done nothing, rather than the far more likely situation of rewrites and editing.
People seriously some basic media literacy lessons.
rather than the far more likely situation of rewrites and editing.
At this point that feels like the bigger assumption
Especially after 13 years.
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No body says he has been idle. In fact, the major contention is that he been too focusing on doing all those things he mentioned.
Sorry dude but he’s not doing shit. He’s busy buying random shit in my hometown and enjoying not working like 99% of the entitled rich transplants that priced out all the locals there.
I honestly don’t know why this guy doesn’t just hire a couple ghostwriters to finish things, proofread them himself, publish them and be done with it
Or credited writers even…
Who wouldn’t want to work with him to finish ASOIAF for a co-author credit?
Or a mention in the foreword even…
Or better yet… The pagecount on the next book is somewhere around 1,100 pages at last count which is more than enough to publish.
Find a natural breaking point around 700 or 800 pages, go to print and reset the clock.
Then you’re already up 300-400 pages on the next book.
I’m fairly certain that the last two books will be published close together. Grrm is well known for writing a chapter and then pushing it to the next book.
I’m fairly certain that the last two books will be published
Hahahahahaha…
*gasp*
Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh, you’re serious. Let me laugh even harder.
Hahahahahahahahaha
I also don’t think he’s writing them, so you can consider that as well
Pride mostly.
There might also be some contractual obligations for him to be the one to right it. Also, he probably doesn’t have a clue where to take them.
After what people he allowed to „finish things“ did to GoT I do not think that is very likely.
We know.
I’m actually surprised he was still working on them two years ago.
Imagine you’re writing an epic tale that gets converted into the world’s most popular TV show, then flown into the side of a mountain by some shitty director. I’d imagine the hate mail and public ridicule he probably got would make anyone lose the drive to finish.
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I don’t think many people rejected the conclusion outright, just the path of getting there. So much of the last season was totally nonsensical. Dothraki ride off into the darkness and get obliterated by zombies; next episode, they’re back! Everyone forgets about the Iron Fleet. Jamie ditches a 7 season character arc in a second. Arya subverts expectations and undermines the existential threat in an instant. The all-seeing, all-knowing Bran serves no purpose except to have “the best story” somehow. Dany heel turns from saving the world to destroying it on a whim.
Most of Game of Thrones, books and show, is predicated on causality. Things happen for a reason. And they happen realistically, not necessarily in the way we want. It was a breathe of fresh air in the beginning. Honor isn’t rewarded for honor’s sake. Strength is a tool, but a slippery slope. Travel takes time. When that realism is thrown out to force plot, it undermines the entire show.
So it’s not necessarily the ending that was bad, it was how it got there.
I’m fairly sure the show ending is the ending of the book, but the directors rushed it. Martin is still thinking of a way trying to get from Book 5 to that ending.
Be honest, do you think he’s worked on them at all since the show started?
He may have done a chapter, maybe two since then? That’s probably it, though.
He has no intention of finishing, especially now that the show is done and people are left with negativity surrounding the ending. It’s the worst possible situation for him, because even if he wanted to finish the books there’s just no way he can do it.
IMO, the best thing he can do is acknowledge this, and draw a line in it. Either hand it off to a protégé or writer friend that is happy to continue the story, or outright say that ASOIAF is done.
Or just hire a ghost writer. Nobody needs to know and even if it comes out, nobody would care.
This is probably not the place to discuss just how fragile IRL feudalism was to actual runs of bad winters and sub-par summers, which were notorious for causing famines that spread across nations. I can’t speak about how it works in Westros, but volcanic winters and bad solar weather shifted the tides of history here on earth.
Considering the notion of decades long winters, the people of Westros would likely be forced to be migratory much like the Dothraki.
That all said, it still was a rich world, and I suspect Martin just wrote himself into a bunch of corners.
Eventually winter came and they all rolled over and died. The end.
George R. R. Martin
Genius, what world building!
I imagine this is about all he’s come up with since the show started…
Rocks fall, everyone dies.
And his understudies have all flown the coop to become famous in their own writing
I’m entirely unsurprised.
D and D got a lot of heat for the last season of Game of Thrones, but I’ve never thought they were entirely, or even chiefly, to blame. Most of the problem really is that GRRM obviously desperately needed an editor to rein him in as the series went along, but for whatever reason, that didn’t happen. So now he has this huge, sprawling mess of a story that’s going in eighteen different directions at once, and just as D and D couldn’t manage to tie it all together, neither can he.
D&D’s biggest problem is they did a good job adapting pre-existing material, but couldn’t adapt a PowerPoint deck.
IIRC from some article or interview way back then, Martin had provided D&D an outline of all the major plot points he intended through the end of the series. So while they might not have had the specifics, the major points would have been there.
If that was true, then it would make sense that they used those major points for the basis of the rest of the show. After the abysmal reception of those points by the fans, I would imagine Martin would have stopped to think about his plans, possibly losing interest entirely.
That assumes that he did in fact provide those major points to D&D in the first place to have adapted however.
There are three subreddits I miss after leaving reddit, and one of them is r/freefolk.
I always felt that one of the main problems with GoT/ASOIAF was that it was a nuanced, political fantasy with top class world-building, but the overarching plot was pushing everyone towards a massive final confrontation (or 2 really). There was not really a good way to resolve the confrontation without a massive battle (or 2). So the ending was always going to have to move away from what made the series interesting/successful (book and TV), i.e. plot, characters, intrigue, shades of grey.
There were other problems as well, but that was something baked into the whole series by GRRM, and I’m not sure he can really find a way to do it differently. He might come up with a different outcome of the final confrontations, but it still has to be done with epic battles.
The Hobbit ends in a massive battle that seemed made for TV, but Bilbo gets a bonk on the head. I’m sure people don’t need to hear about the ebb and flow of the battle. Have King Stannis host a feast afterwards and the few characters left alive can trade highlight stories.
Upvote for Stannis the Mannis
So the ending was always going to have to move away from what made the series interesting/successful
While you have a point, I don’t think the ending was necessarily bad because of that.
To me the resolutions they did use were just badly executed. I’d have been fine with the battle of the bastards resolving the Bolton plot, if the battle as shown didn’t make me scream at my screen every 2 minutes from all the logic holes. Same with the fall of Highgarden, Daenerys going insane, Bran becoming King etc. They could have reached mostly the same outcomes and it could have been fine. But the build up and the attention to detail just weren’t there at all. And it wasn’t even that they ran out of time, they deliberately shortened the last 2 seasons because they wanted it to be over.
I agree the execution of the end of GoT was bad (i.e. the problems weren’t just the issue of everything needing to come to a head). There were a lot of different complaints about how GoT ended, but I definitely saw a lot about how it was all just battles in the last season and no nuance. I think that was always going to be hard to avoid given how GRRM had set up the main plot. And I think he will find it hard to avoid when writing the last 2 books, which could be part of the reason he doesn’t want to do it.
Nah. The problem are not GRRMs plot points they more or less hit, it’s that they did it in the most moronic ways imaginable.
Do you know what’s nuts? He’s well respected within the industry as an editor - he’s worked with many of the luminaries of science fiction and fantasy over the years as the editor for Wild Cards and other short story collections.
On the other hand we have Brandon Sanderson with 20 year roadmap and consistent release coupled with all the secret novels that he wrote.
I have this sneaking suspicion that he has this black magic power to suck all the creative will of writers, including GRRM and Patrick Rothfuss.
With Brando the Mando Sando it boils down to work ethic and process.
He has said in lectures that while writing a first draft, an author should be able to push out a thousand words an hour. That’s pretty reasonable if you’re a decent typist and you’re just focusing on getting rough ideas down. Once he’s got a draft, he throws it to his editor(s) who gets to work. If he’s gotten a draft back from them with notes, he gets on that. Otherwise, he’s cranking away at the next first draft.
The man is prolific because he’s got his team dialed in and treats it like any other job. He shows up with a plan and executes.
Then he turns around and tithes to one of the most socially backwards, openly corrupt churches to be formed in the last 200 years.
If that wasn’t bad enough, he scammed the community into backing a 43 million dollar kickstarter for an exclusive, never-to-be-released-on-audible project. Not even a year after release, he reverses completely and releases everything to audible without even a credit to the backers.
Absolute scam artist. I’m 85% convinced he’s gonna come out with a Salt Lake City “creativity compound” where he’s got a 20 cell sweatshop of indentured “employees” pumping out cosmere drafts. Dude has had creepy Cosby vibes for years and there’s definitely a reason somewhere.
This might be the largest gap between technically correct and ungenerous reading of events that I’ve ever seen.
I know nothing about this author but people always recommend his books. Is OP wrong? Or is there missing context.
It’s just a very ungenerous interpretation of a lot of factually correct things. Brandon Sanderson is, indeed, Mormon and while I’ve never heard him say as much explicitly, the way he talks a out his faith makes me believe that yes, he does tithe to the church.
As for the audio book stuff, when Sanderson was doing his massive kickstarter for his four secret projects, he said that the audio books would not initially be available on Audible/Amazon. He said this was because he believed Amazon had too much market power and that he was successful enough that he didn’t need them and would thus withhold releasing his books on that platform. I don’t recall him ever saying that they would never be released there. Partway through fulfillment of the kickstarter, he announced that Amazon had changed its compensation structure (for all authors, not just him) in the direction he wanted and tbuse he felt it was okay to release his books on Amazon’s platform.
If you like heroic fantasy with unique magic systems, I recommend giving him a shot. I like to compare him to Marvel movies: not groundbreaking or innovative or the pinnacle of the art form, but competently made that hits all the emotional beats you want out of the story in a familiar and comforting way.
Ok.
I stopped reading Sanderson specifically because he puts out so many books with unnecessarily huge page counts that I just don’t care anymore.
I’m not allergic to long books either, having read the entire WoT series 3+ times. But I’d much rather read stuff that authors have spent time on instead of mass producing.
at this point this is a HL3 situation and it’s better if he never finishes the series. it will never live up to expectations. leave it be. if you enjoyed the story so far, celebrate that and move on. it’s about the journey, not the destination.
He’s never finishing the series. He’s going to be 76 in a month, he still has probably most of Winds to finish after 13 years, the math doesn’t work out to getting A Dream of Spring, let along the fact that this story is way too big to satisfactorily conclude in 2 books at this point, and even if it could be done it would be complex and difficult and take longer than usual.
I’m irrationally still hopeful we get Winds. But that is it.
Remember when GRRM was so pissed that people criticized his friend Robert Jordan for faffing around for over a decade and never finishing the Wheel of Time series? Yeah, same.
He should just get Brandon Sanderson to finish it for him prehumously
I’m curious to see how my boy Sanderson handles a book series that is almost entirely politics. Not to say I haven’t seen Sanderson have politics, Stormlight Archives probably the most political of his many books, but its still not even close to the intensely political nature of ASOIAF.
We all know Sanderson would hit a home run though.
Shocking.
GoT’s final half and definitely last season pissed me off to no end at the time, but in retrospect I’m glad I don’t have to care about this anymore.
How to kill your fan base by making them wait decades: a GRRM story
Twist the knife with that God awful last few seasons to the show, too. Really kill any good will you had with your fans.
I’m afraid what happened is that he saw the fan reaction as a hate of the major plot points themselves, rather than of the abysmal pacing and handling of it all. We’ve been told that the broad strokes were from his drafts and plans for the series.
I liked most of the last few seasons. Everything up to the Night King’s death was good IMO; it went to shit when they rushed Daenerys going nuts afterwards
