cross-posted from: https://feddit.org/post/4262252

A combination of good high-speed internet coverage, high digital literacy rates, large rural populations and fast-growing fintech industries had put the Nordic neighbours on a fast track to a future without cash.

[…]

But Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and a subsequent rise in cross-border hybrid warfare and cyber-attacks blamed on pro-Russia groups have prompted a rethink.

[…]

The Swedish government has since completely overhauled its defence and preparedness strategy, joining Nato, starting a new form of national service and reactivating its psychological defence agency to combat disinformation from Russia and other adversaries. Norway has tightened controls on its previously porous border with Russia.

[…]

[Norway’s] justice and public security ministry said it “recommends everyone keep some cash on hand due to the vulnerabilities of digital payment solutions to cyber-attacks”. It said the government took preparedness seriously “given the increasing global instability with war, digital threats, and climate change. As a result, they’ve ensured that the right to pay with cash is strengthened”.

[…]

  • kn0wmad1c
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    145 hours ago

    In America, you can’t open a bank account without an address. That means that the homeless population can’t open a bank account (not easily, anyway), and therefore can’t get a debit card.

    Cashless is a nice idea, but it is extremely prohibitive against the most vulnerable people (which, sadly, might be part of the point).

    • @[email protected]
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      1 hour ago

      In Germany any EU resident has a right to a basic account, in case you’re homeless you should have an address because you’re in a shelter, if you insist on sleeping rough (or the municipality is just too fucked up, happens in places) you can give the address of a social work organisation (those are all over also doing debtor counselling and a lot of other stuff).

      Only valid reason for a bank to refuse basic business is if you tried to defraud them. They don’t have to give you a credit line, but they do have to accept your money, store it, and let you wire it (incl. POS payments etc).

      Identity fraud is not an issue because they’ll want to see a proper ID which, if you’re legally in the country, you have.

      It’s less about paying, though, you can always pay with cash in Germany, it’s about the welfare authorities not wanting to handle cash and cheques only if actually necessary.

    • @[email protected]
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      22 hours ago

      It’s funny because actually you can receive mails pretty much everywhere without giving an actual address. P.O boxes and post restante. Only banks keep enforcing residential addresses as it was a guarantee of having lack of identity frauds.

  • @NIB
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    5 hours ago

    Noone uses cash in Sweden, except for maybe drug dealers and super old people(and the occasional tourist). Most businesses dont even accept cash anymore.

    It isnt just the convenience of not having to carry cash, it is also much safer. Much lower risk of getting robbed, for both individuals and businesses.

    • Lemminary
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      132 minutes ago

      Much lower risk of getting robbed

      Maybe that works in Sweden, but in other places you get shot if you’re not carrying money with you 😅

    • @[email protected]
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      2 hours ago

      Until you forget changing 6 digit pin of your credit card before you travel to the country which accepts 4 digit normally. You’re f…d, the only way is to get call your family to make moneygram / western union transfer (or if you can do make such an order on your own). If you wonder which country I live, it’s the same country which has one of the highest banknotes 1000 CHF.

    • lazynooblet
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      52 hours ago

      Cash is still used a lot. Especially for second hand small purchases. Not everyone wants to do the PayPal dance at a car boot.

  • @dogslayeggs
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    428 hours ago

    As much as I hate using cash, I understand that the credit card companies charge ridiculous fees to businesses and also that people with very low income don’t always have access to digital forms of payment. Maybe Sweden does better with equipping their entire society with digital tools, but in the US I don’t think we are ready for a fully digital payment society.

    • @brewery
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      32 hours ago

      In the EU and UK, heavy regulation, especially of Visa and MasterCard, means the fees are actually lower than the costs of handling cash. Lots of businesses want only card transactions because it works out better for them and most people don’t carry any cash so that need to offer card payments, and so it makes even less sense to offer both methods. The only industries who like cash are likely trying some form of tax evasion.

      Cleverly, they banned businesses from charging any payment fees and suddenly, businesses negotiated and found suppliers offering low payment fees. We don’t have anything like these convenience fees for paying with cards over cheque that I hear about.

      Amex still charges higher fees so many places still don’t take those cards. The value of benefits (air miles, cashback) have gone down significantly but in reality, it was essentially transferring wealth from the poor (who could never get these cards) to the rich, through these fees, so works out better overall.

      The banks here advertise that they help everyone get bank accounts and social benefits are paid into bank accounts so I assume everyone is able to get an account. However, I do wonder if some people, especially the homeless, slip through the cracks.

    • @sensiblepuffin
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      85 hours ago

      It’s extremely disappointing to me (admittedly in the US) that Covid seems to have obliterated any chance for a large-scale investigation on payment processors’ stranglehold on our financial systems. The fees that Visa/Mastercard/etc. charge, especially for tiny merchants with insanely low transaction numbers, are criminal.

    • @njordomir
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      318 hours ago

      I don’t like using cashless anything because I know part of the cost is my privacy. Having said that, convenience is a powerful draw and cash can be a pain, especially when you have to find a spot for small coins.

      • @[email protected]
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        238 minutes ago

        Look into Monero. You get the benefits of digital payments, but you get the privacy of cash.

      • 100
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        98 hours ago

        nobody should be including apple or google spy apps in their payment processing

    • lime!
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      127 hours ago

      there haven’t been card fees for end users in Sweden for many years. handling cash is a lot more expensive since you need somewhere secure to keep change, you loose time at the till handling the money, and you need to pay for someone to come pick it up. the time gained from just having the customers pay with card means businesses gladly swallow the fees.

      and yes, i’m always surprised when going abroad how much more analog everything is. the nordics and Baltic’s are generally at about the same level (with Estonia way ahead), but the rest of the continent feels like it’s 10 years behind. I was once asked if I really wanted to pay with card in a corner shop in Leipzig, since the card fee was €10.

      not that i’m a fan of the digitalisation, it makes marginalised groups even more marginalised. i see my elderly relatives struggling with it often.

      • @Evotech
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        107 hours ago

        The end user didn’t pay directly, but the companies very much pay for this privilege

        Which is why Swish, and in Norway, Vipps has been a big thing. So the banks can get that revenue for themselves instead of sharing with visa / Mastercard

    • @Evotech
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      7 hours ago

      In Norway and Sweden many places just doesn’t take cash. Probably been around 2 years since I last used cash

      Anything from kids bakesales takes digital payment

    • @[email protected]
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      15 hours ago

      Here, many stores don’t accept cash so I assume accepting credit cards is cheaper and easier than handing cash.

  • @Peffse
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    34 hours ago

    This would suck so bad. My debit card’s chip went bad and the bank can’t reissue me a new one until it expires. I’ve been using cash as a fallback when I don’t want to do the ‘3 chip failure timeout then swipe’ dance just to purchase some soda.

    • lazynooblet
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      72 hours ago

      Report it lost instead. I’ve lost cards loads of times over the years. One phone call and the new one is on its way. However the fact your bank wouldn’t issue your replacement makes me think they would charge you for this privilege.

    • @brewery
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      42 hours ago

      They seriously won’t issue one even though it’s faulty? Surely it’s their fault as suppliers of a defective product that is probably still owned by them in some legalise way!

      My chip stopped working and after one quick phone call they sent a replacement one. Do all the banks you can access do this or worth changing over?

  • troed
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    168 hours ago

    We have cash?

    o_O

    Haven’t used it for years.

    • @folekaule
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      2 hours ago

      It’s still legal tender so they have to accept it. They don’t like it, but they do. Last time I visited Norway I held up the line at the grocery store trying to buy candy with cash that had been gifted to me. I’m not sure the cashier knew what to do with it.

      Edit: many people telling me they are not required. From what I could find, cash is still “tvunget betalingsmiddel”, but there are some broad exceptions. Ref. So, I don’t think I was out of line expecting to pay cash at the grocery store. However, that was the only time I paid cash when I visited last time, so yeah, it’s basically cashless already.

      • troed
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        117 hours ago

        Shops in Sweden very often state that they don’t accept cash - and it’s perfectly legal for them to make that choice.

      • @[email protected]
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        107 hours ago

        legal tender

        As far as I understood it in the last 20 years, it is only legal tender for debt facing the goverment. No private business has to accept cash. They do not have to accept cards either. If they wish, they could demand payments only in acorns or bottle caps if they wanted to. Only govermental Institutes (eg. for taxes, fines, etc.) have to always accept cash so you can always free yourself from outstanding debits without needing a bank account as bank wiring or credit cards are a private 3rd party business that can not be guaranteed for every citizen (as banks can arbitrary decline service to people).

        • @[email protected]
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          11 hour ago

          At least in Germany legal tender means “valid for payment of any obligation”, also private ones. But if a shop says “we don’t accept cash” then they’re not entering a sales contract with you unless you agree to pay in another way, without contract no payment obligation to them so they’re not required to accept anything, and if there is a contract, well, you agreed to the terms.

          I don’t think the same would fly for e.g. rental or utility contracts, though. Any contract that isn’t agreed upon and fulfilled while you’re standing in front of the cashier.

      • @Evotech
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        37 hours ago

        They do not have to accept it

      • @Valmond
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        15 hours ago

        I took a bus in Malmö over ten years ago (on the seaside to the railway station), they didn’t accept cash or card, only some mobile payment. Got a free ride.

  • Kokesh
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    68 hours ago

    Yeees! Great! I like cash.

  • @[email protected]
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    26 hours ago

    Sweden is otherwise cool with having a zero privacy payment system? I’m a little Suprised this made it that far even there. When I see a business that says it does not accept cash, I stay away even if I wasn’t planning to use cash anyway.

    • @brewery
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      22 hours ago

      We have much tougher GDPR laws so I am more worried about American companies stealing my data than any based in the EU. I use different passmails for every account hoping to find a company breaching GDPR but (luckily?) unluckily, no hits so far.

      Every company I have worked for, including a major bank, takes GDPR extremely seriously. So much so I often thought they went to far but understand their caution.

  • @[email protected]
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    68 hours ago

    Meanwhile in Denmark: FULL STEAM AHEAD! Next stop on the digitalisation train, all of your identification papers!