• @[email protected]
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    8115 days ago

    In California they have prisoners fight the wildfires. I find it sickening, but it’s a popular program. I wonder if that’s where this result comes from. The wildfires get worse and worse and they need bodies to sacrifice. Depressing.

    • FlashMobOfOne
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      3615 days ago

      My thoughts as well.

      It’s the wildfires. They don’t want to pay more in taxes to hire more firefighters, at least that’s what makes sense to me.

      It’s still an abominably shitty thing and, IMHO, a human rights violation too.

      • @Warl0k3
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        15 days ago

        It’s at least a volunteer program, they aren’t directly forcing people to fight the fires. A lot of people, the prisoners included, consider it a way of repaying their debt to society. I’m pretty sure I don’t agree with a great deal of the situation in which it exists, but I do think that if I was in prison, being able to to something, feel like I still matter, would be some comfort.

      • @[email protected]
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        14 days ago

        They don’t want to pay more in taxes to hire more firefighters, at least that’s what makes sense to me.

        california is like richer than most countries in the world. dnc and its upper class base is more rotten that i had thought. no wonder 15 million democrats don’t want to vote for these cronies.

    • @Maggoty
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      2015 days ago

      That’s a volunteer program. This is inside the prison work and comes with physical and mental punishment if you refuse.

      • @[email protected]
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        515 days ago

        Not exactly “voluntary” in a meaningful way if the alternative is in-prison work or punishment.

        • @Maggoty
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          15 days ago

          That is true yes. It’s also worth extra “good time” which can get you released from the system earlier.

          Edit - I be clear I mean, “put your life in danger to escape this hellhole faster” is a whole other level of coercion.

      • @LordCrom
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        115 days ago

        Ya, volunteer or get sent to solitary. Good choice there.

        • @Maggoty
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          1314 days ago

          Oh no you seem to think I’m defending this so let’s break this down.

          You can circumvent the normal prison labor system by volunteering to fight fires. This comes with perks and good time. Or you can exist in the normal prison labor system making products under threat of mental or physical abuse.

          So joining the firefighters is also extremely coercive because it requires you to risk your life for your freedom, privileges, and keeping you away from the abusive labor system the other prisoners exist in.

          None of this is good.

  • @NarrativeBear
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    15 days ago

    Looks like people voted no to slavery, but the question asked do you not support slavery.

    The answer should have been (yes) I do not support slavery.

    Instead (no) I do not support slavery.

    I can image a good chunk of people got confused with the wording, and I myself am still confused reading it.

    • @[email protected]
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      6415 days ago

      Are you sure? It seems pretty straightforward to me. “This amendment would bar slavery and involuntary servitude.” It’s the first sentence.

      • @rdrunner
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        1315 days ago

        I bet the wording on the ballot was different. Similar election results sites for my local ballot measures hasve greatly simplified the language the ballot had (which honestly is probably how ballot measures should be written)

        • @krashmo
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          1615 days ago

          Or maybe Americans are largely shitty people. Stop trying to excuse the behavior and accept it for what it is

          • @rdrunner
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            915 days ago

            Well yeah, obviously, but the wording of a question is often manipulated to lead people to different results. That’s all

            • @AngryCommieKender
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              514 days ago

              The wording on the ballot was summarized, but it hit the key points.

              PROP 6

              ELIMINATES CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION ALLOWING INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE FOR INCARCERATED PERSONS. LEGISLATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT. SUMMARY Put on the Ballot by the Legislature

              Amends the California Constitution to remove current provision that allows jails and prisons to impose involuntary servitude to punish crime (i.e., forcing incarcerated persons to work). Fiscal Impact: Potential increase or decrease in state and local costs, depending on how work for people in state prison and county jail changes. Any effect likely would not exceed the tens of millions of dollars annually.

              Supporters: Assemblymember Lori Wilson

              Opponents: None submitted

              WHAT YOUR VOTE MEANS

              YES A YES vote on this measure means: Involuntary servitude would not be allowed as punishment for crime. State prisons would not be allowed to discipline people in prison who refuse to work.

              NO A NO vote on this measure means: Involuntary servitude would continue to be allowed as punishment for crime. ARGUMENTS

              PRO Proposition 6 ends slavery in California and upholds human rights and dignity for everyone. It replaces carceral involuntary servitude with voluntary work programs, has bipartisan support, and aligns with national efforts to reform the 13th Amendment. It will prioritize rehabilitation, lower recidivism, and improve public safety, resulting in taxpayer savings.

              CON No argument against Proposition 6 was submitted.

              That’s what we were all mailed to our particular mail collection place.

              On the actual ballot it was clear that a “yes” vote was a vote to abolish the clause in our state constitution that allowed this barbary.

              • @rdrunner
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                114 days ago

                Oh interesting, that’s a lot more clear than what our mail in ballots looked like in my state.I guess fuck those people then

        • @[email protected]
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          1115 days ago

          You know, reading that today, and putting myself in the shoes of an overworked, everyday American, it seems the wording does leave something to be desired. I wonder how that vote would have turned out if the question were: “Do you support slavery as long as the person was convicted of a crime and is in prison?”

      • @billbasher
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        115 days ago

        With the amount of people that voted for Trump I don’t have much confidence in the literacy of randos

    • @Wilzax
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      3915 days ago

      Your wording is more confusing to me

    • @Maggoty
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      1815 days ago

      This is the ballot text, it’s not really confusing at all.

      Link

      • @NarrativeBear
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        1815 days ago

        The link you supplied clears it all up. No way anyone could have misunderstood the vote, the ballot even outlines what yes and no mean in the context.

        I think I now agree with what krashmo said in the thread below.

        “Or maybe Americans are largely shitty people. Stop trying to excuse the behavior and accept it for what it is”

        • @AngryCommieKender
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          14 days ago

          The part that was most surprising to me was this:

          ARGUMENTS

          PRO Proposition 6 ends slavery in California and upholds human rights and dignity for everyone. It replaces carceral involuntary servitude with voluntary work programs, has bipartisan support, and aligns with national efforts to reform the 13th Amendment. It will prioritize rehabilitation, lower recidivism, and improve public safety, resulting in taxpayer savings.

          CON No argument against Proposition 6 was submitted.

          No one came out in opposition? Not even the bureau of prisons, or the warden’s union‽‽ And it still didn’t pass?

          Edit: I, and all my housemates claim to have, voted for this proposition, and actually all the propositions I had on my ballot in IB to pass. It’s truly disheartening to see that all the other props that mattered less than this one passed, and this one that literally seems to have no downsides is potentially failing.

          For reference, the downsides of almost every single other proposition on the IB ballot would increase various taxes, and all of them passed. WTELF you stupid NIMBYS‽‽‽

            • @AngryCommieKender
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              14 days ago

              This is the only reason that I would support the absolutely horrendous idea of ensuring that everyone’s vote was public record, and I would still vote against that erosion of our rights.

  • @blazeknave
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    3715 days ago

    The props are worded so insanely that without hours of prep, I would vote incorrectly.

    • @kofe
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      914 days ago

      My state banned ranked choice voting by an insane margin because it was worded like “only citizens should be allowed to vote, and each citizen only gets one vote each!” Literally two Google searches would clear it up if people had more critical thinking skills

      • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】
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        214 days ago

        That’s what I’d call a rigged election.

        This is also one of the downsides of citizen ballot initiatives. The proponent can usually word things however they want.

        In Mass., I know they have a strict judicial review for the language. It requires a clear and fair statement, and it gets refined through a unique type of litigation.

  • @[email protected]
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    15 days ago

    A “resistance” against the will of the majority is generally called a terrorist organization.

    Progressive Americans, face it: Most of the people around you want this.

    • @Allonzee
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      George Carlin called it decades ago.

      The politicians are a reflection of us.

      Our PEOPLE suck.

      A fat, greedy, proudly ignorant, proudly racist, spray tanned elitist bully drunk on schaudenfreude is the perfect American mascot.

      He’s like the United States took human form. A monument to all our sins.

      If you still consider the rugged individualism we crow about a feature and not severe mental illness, you are infected with the disease. If you want winners and losers, go live in the forest and see if you live or die.

      Societies need to work together, and we have been trained in the spirt of capitalist competition🤮 to compete against eachother, to tear eachother down, to root against one another hoping to get moooaaaar for ourselves. This is the very opposite of a society.

    • @[email protected]
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      1715 days ago

      The first part is not true. The White rose and the french resistance in ww2 are both called “resistance”. So the distinction between terrorists and resistance is in the eye of the historian.

    • @Furbag
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      315 days ago

      I’m inclined to just let them have it at this point. I’m done fighting. Give me the coup de grace and let it be swift.

  • @[email protected]
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    2815 days ago

    This is the first result I checked for when I woke up this morning, and I nearly vomited when I saw the breakdown. Half the vote is still uncounted, but I don’t think the result will change. I’m ashamed of my neighbors.

  • @slickgoat
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    2415 days ago

    Call for resistance? You can get enough Americans to get off their arse to vote every four years?

    • @LordCrom
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      515 days ago

      You can’t get most Americans to stop playing Fortnight or watching Dancing with the stupid Stars to even pay attention to the country

    • @[email protected]
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      114 days ago

      They should combine it with selling a new iPhone on election day. People have time to camp out for weeks in front of the store for that.

  • Anas
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    2115 days ago

    To be fair, and that’s being very fair, it does end with “allowing involuntary servitude as a punishment for crime” and a case could be made for confusing wording.

    • @Maggoty
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      1115 days ago

      This is the ballot text, it’s not really confusing at all.

      Link

      • Anas
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        1215 days ago

        Oh wow, that’s actually explained very well. Fair enough, y’all just want slavery I guess lol

        • @Maggoty
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          615 days ago

          But only as a punishment for a crime. Like the new felony theft of a toothbrush from the other proposition we have definitely passed. (Made what was previously misdemeanor theft into felony theft, and yes we still have a 3 strikes law to imprison you for life.)

          California is not some progressive bastion. It’s a conservative state that doesn’t bother the LGBTQ community.

          • @[email protected]
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            314 days ago

            I keep telling people I think it’ll flip in our lifetime. Too many kids growing up without the faintest idea of how wealthy they are in the bay (and the valley/NorCal are conservative anyway). Unearned wealth directly leads to conservatives for a lot of people

        • @PlantDadManGuy
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          314 days ago

          I think it’s really just an obvious proof of the complete and total lack of reading comprehension that most citizens have here.

        • @Maggoty
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          214 days ago

          Right?

          Fucking right?

      • @turddle
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        114 days ago

        The Arguments section is unfortunately left out on actual ballots. I could see a lot of the less research-inclined citizens interpret that as simple community service and not straight up indentured servitude.

        Unfortunately, most things can be attributed to stupidity rather than malice. Had they put the word slavery on the ballots I’d hope we’d see a better split

        • @Maggoty
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          114 days ago

          Everyone gets a booklet with all the analysis and arguments in it, weeks before the election. There is very little that could have been done to make this more clear. At some point it’s just reprehensible. We don’t look back at chattel slavery and hem and haw about education. Neither should we do so here.

          • @turddle
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            114 days ago

            I’m aware. That’s why I say the less inclined. Gotta ask ourselves how many are actually reading the booklet or even taking more than 5 seconds to process the ballot blurb.

            Google is also right at everyone’s fingertips yet misinformation is still prevalent everywhere. Some people are just stupid.

            Unfortunately, there are lots of them.

  • @Maggoty
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    1615 days ago

    It hasn’t been called yet but I certainly didn’t have California votes to be a slave state on my 2024 bingo card.

  • @taiyang
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    615 days ago

    I think it’ll be a few days before everything is counted, since California is pretty slow. That said, conservative turnout seems pretty high so I wouldn’t be surprised if it fails.

    • @[email protected]
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      215 days ago

      Yeah, we generally are an example of the 5 day rule as I saw a text book call it. Basically nothing is certain until five days after an election. The reason for V days is because it covers a full work week roughly.

      • @taiyang
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        415 days ago

        Too bad the same can’t be said about the national election this time. Looks like the rent control one isn’t going well either, which is bananas given a majority of voters are renters.

        • @Maggoty
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          315 days ago

          There was a massive push in the last week to tell people it would end all new housing developments, triple rent, and make us all homeless. All of the major newspapers and the governor came out on that line.

          Which is ridiculous of course but there was no time to refute it.

          • @taiyang
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            215 days ago

            I didn’t know the governor said that. And the cons so exist, but really only to landlords and rich people like him.

            I’ll be honest that rent control isn’t perfect though. A band aid at best.

  • @[email protected]
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    414 days ago

    In character for the US. Now it just has to play a Civil War movie and some patriotic montage to act like it isn’t there.

    • @Sarmyth
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      314 days ago

      There were none. It had no opposition either.

  • @Sarmyth
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    214 days ago

    I dunno, I voted for it, but California has HUGE conservative areas and the notion of working off your sentence isn’t exactly new or seen as particularly cruel by most. Also the comparisons to slavery will fall on deaf ears because it’s as much slavery as imprisoning people is kidnapping.

    If you are OK with prisons, forced labor within them isn’t going to seem significantly harsher.

  • @Shanedino
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    -915 days ago

    Isn’t work in prisons usually a privilege? Is this something that is actually used? What happens when someone just doesn’t do what is asked of them?

    • @stoly
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      1615 days ago

      That’s bad behavior and more time.

      • @Shanedino
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        315 days ago

        Cool, thanks for the info. So, for everything except extreme cases where someone is going to be imprisoned until they die it is negatively impactful.

        • @stoly
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          515 days ago

          They used to do “hard time” and make prisoners crush rocks with hammers to make gravel.

    • @Maggoty
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      1115 days ago

      Solitary confinement, bread and water meals, and even beatings by guards have been reported by prisoners.

  • @LovableSidekick
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    15 days ago

    Oh go away, they did not vote for “slavery”. They voted to allow making convicted felons work as part of their sentence. It’s slavery in the same sense that working to buy food and pay rent is “slavery”. Metaphorically yes, but calling it slavery devalues the experiences of all the people who were kidnapped from their homes, brought here in chains on ships, and sold in a market.

    • @Jiggle_Physics
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      1915 days ago

      Hey, would you look at that, chattel slavery isn’t the only type. That is amazing, no one could have guessed that until right now, after I looked it up. It is almost like it being called chattel slavery implies multiple forms of slavery. Wow, this is so new, and novel.

      • @LovableSidekick
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        -915 days ago

        Yeah it’s a big world! Here’s another new thing for you - look up “Indentured servitude”. It’s where you are forced to work to pay off a debt or something, but it’s not “slavery” and nobody owns you. Kind of like in prison.

        • @Jiggle_Physics
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          915 days ago

          Look up the 13th amendment, and why they had to write in an exclusionary clause to it because, even people from a time of chattel slavery practice, knew this was slavery too, and not indentured servitude, which stayed legal for decades afterwards! The factors making it slavery are quite eloquently explained, namely that indentured servitude was a contract the indentured servant had to agree to! Isn’t that neat? It wasn’t legally forced on them! Wanna know something else cool? The fact that it is a contractual agreement is STILL the definition!

    • NιƙƙιDιɱҽʂ
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      1015 days ago

      Just like uncle Tom, working in the house so he could make a living…as a slave. But hey, they fed and clothed him, so is it still slavery?

      • @LovableSidekick
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        15 days ago

        “Just like?” I dunno, was Tom in prison for committing crimes or did somebody just kidnap him or his ancestors and say okay you’re a slave now? If you’re going to ignore that difference this conversation is pointless.

        • @YarHarSuperstar
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          214 days ago

          Right because the US is known for having a very fair “justice” system

        • NιƙƙιDιɱҽʂ
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          14 days ago

          The better question is, was he in prison due to unjust laws and unfair application of law due to the colour of his skin? Fuck it, they’re locked up, force to him work regardless.

          • @LovableSidekick
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            215 days ago

            That’s always A question in an individual case, but assuming convicts are innocent isn’t rational.

      • @LovableSidekick
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        215 days ago

        Yes, let’s read the 13th Amendment together: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

        Notice that two things are listed - slavery and involuntary servitude. I define convict labor as involuntary servitude. The 13th Amendment doesn’t back up either interpretation.

        • @[email protected]
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          15 days ago

          Yeah guy, we are both referencing the same idea, but from distinctly different perspectives, it would seem. You seem to like the punishment clauses, whereas I would argue that an Amendment ratified in 1865 is very much due for an overhaul.

  • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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    -5115 days ago

    People likely voted for not repealing the provision allowing involuntary servitude as a punishment for crime and not for keeping slavery.

    Whoever thought combining those two things in one vote was a good idea is an idiot

      • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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        -9415 days ago

        No, it’s a form of punishment. It can be avoided by not committing crimes.

        • @ProIsh
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          5115 days ago

          You must be either young and ignorant or don’t know how crime is set up here in America.

        • @isles
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          4915 days ago

          Like the crime of not being paid enough to afford housing?

            • @Womdat10
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              114 days ago

              In the several states where it is a crime to be homeless. Such as the 24 states with laws restricting “loitering” in public spaces. Or the 16 states that do the same, but in all spaces. Or the 15 states where pitching a tent in public locations is illegal. Or the 4 states that do that, but in all spaces. Or the 6 states where sleeping or lying down in public is illegal. Or the 4 states where it is illegal to sleep in a vehicle.

        • @Mirshe
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          3415 days ago

          Nah, slavery is still slavery. Tons of US businesses are currently propped up by prisoner workers who they don’t have to pay practically anything, and who can’t walk off the job, and who can’t really complain too much, AND, conveniently, aren’t employed by that company so they can bypass labor laws like break times, safety regulations, and working hours.

        • @ChonkyOwlbearM
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          3415 days ago

          Because no innocent person is ever wrongly locked up, right?

          • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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            -1415 days ago

            So release everyone from prison, because a minority of inmates are wrongly locked up.

            • @ChonkyOwlbearM
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              515 days ago

              You said slavery could be avoided by not committing crimes. I showed that is not true.

        • @Viking_Hippie
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          2615 days ago

          It’s slavery as punishment. Which is still slavery.

          It can be avoided by not committing crimes.

          In a justice system functioning perfectly? Sure! In the US one, on the other hand…

        • @darthelmet
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          2115 days ago

          You should read literally anything about the US prison industry, mass incarceration, or war on drugs. The fact that America has the world’s largest prison population, that companies make money from this, and that the people who get imprisoned are largely non-white couldn’t possibly be related right?

        • @[email protected]
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          15 days ago

          You’re making the following statements, lmk if this is inaccurate:

          -Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.

          -Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).

          Inference made: Constitutional protections and rights do NOT apply to those going against the rule of law.

          Questions for you:

          -If involuntary servitude isn’t considered slavery, then what would you consider slavery to be?

          -Is this a form of punishment that helps to reform and correct those deemed currently unsuitable for society (without going into the meaninglessness of Orwellian naming conventions, they are called the “Department of Corrections”, aren’t they?)

          -Do you think the rule of law always corresponds with ethical standards?

          -I always like to ask myself the following: Who stands to benefit from allowing slaver- I mean, “involuntary servitude” to continue to be allowed? Who stands to benefit from all this cheap labor?

          I’m curious as to your answers here.

          • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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            114 days ago

            I’m curious as to your answers here.

            The thing is: it is not black-or-white but always and heavily depends on context. But let me try to clarify my point of view.

            Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.

            If someone commits a crime and is sentenced to do community service for example, then it is a punishment, yes. In a modern society they are not forced (i.e. with actual psychologic/financial/physical force) but rather given the option to either do community service (or whatever they were sentenced to by the judge, like for example an arsonist has to help rebuilding what they burned down) or chose not to do it. It this case they either have to pay a certain amount of money or they’re going to jail instead.

            Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).

            Yes, in two ways. First, it is part of their correction process by giving them a structured day, a responsibility, something to be proud of (like getting a qualification or being able to have some form of apprenticeship helping them to gain a foothold in society, etc., etc.). And second as part of their imprisionment. Also mainly to have a structured day and having them away from their cell so the prison staff can search it for contraband, the cleaning staff to do their work, etc. The prisoners will also get some money from it for being able to buy “luxury goods” in the prison kiosk (i.e. goods that are not provided by the prison, like chocolate, good/better coffee, etc.).

            They’re also not “forced” to do this. If they decide not to, then they usually get more strict rules, like less “free” time in the courtyard, not allowed to have regular visitors, no day parole, earlier cell confinement and less time to see other inmates, etc.

            what would you consider slavery to be

            Forcing someone to do work for you, using physical (threatening with, or using violence), psychological (talk them into doing it, yelling at them, bully them, etc.), or financial (exploiting their poverty) force and/or ignoring safety risks and/or ignoring health issues and risks.

            So: inmates are “forced” doing work in the context I described: not slaves. Poor exploited locals building soccer stadiums in Dubai: slaves.

            • @[email protected]
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              14 days ago

              Appreciate you clarifying. I have a better understanding of your views than I did before.

              We seem to disagree on what the use of “force” constitutes exactly. In my opinion, having someone have to choose between what most would regard as basic amenities or working as cheap labor for some large conglomerate is considered force.

              But, that’s my opinion. And you’re entitled to yours. I’m glad you could explain your position more clearly so that I could understand opposing viewpoints.

        • snooggums
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          1415 days ago

          It is literally slavery.

        • @Furbag
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          515 days ago

          Let me know if you change your position on that if you’re ever convicted and sentenced to prison for a crime you did not commit.

          Maybe we should be treating people humanely regardless of their criminal record? They are in prison to become reformed citizens, not to be our slave laborers.

        • @CarbonatedPastaSauce
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          515 days ago

          Look at this guy over here who thinks there aren’t any innocent people in prison.

        • @surewhynotlem
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          415 days ago

          Now is when you can realize you’re wrong, learn, and edit your comment.

            • @surewhynotlem
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              815 days ago

              Teach you how forcing someone to do labor and be treated like a financial asset is slavery?

              Well that’s easy. You open up your English textbook, you look up the word slavery, and you look at the definition.

              Here, I’ll do the work for you:

              “plural noun: slaves 1. a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person.”

              Or do you mean, how is this situation slavery? It’s also pretty simple. The American prison system is for-profit. The government is incentivized to arrest more people because they have minimum quotas to meet when putting people in prison. Otherwise they pay extra on the contracts. The prison employees are considered assets in this situation. And those prison employees are put to work with no or little pay.

              But I do understand. English is a very complicated language and the intricacies of the US prison system are not well known in other countries, I imagine. Thank you for asking for help.

    • @Stovetop
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      2415 days ago

      You can be enslaved in the US for the crime of not having enough money to afford a place to live.

        • @Stovetop
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          315 days ago

          Maybe it’d be a good idea to familiarize yourself with the problems in the US before making sweeping statements about them, in that case.

        • @[email protected]
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          115 days ago

          Yeah unlike all those people I see living in the streets in Germany, who do that by choice

    • @[email protected]
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      1615 days ago

      …what other slavery currently exists (legally) that this would have addressed? This isn’t combining two things. Barring slavery in any form includes punitive servitude. Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.

      • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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        -815 days ago

        Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.

        Yes, those are two different things that should be addressed separately.

        One is emergency plumbing, the other is maintenance.

        • @RubberElectrons
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          115 days ago

          Man dirk, I’m embarrassed for you and your family 🤦

          • Bo7a
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            fedilink
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            215 days ago

            I’m more embarrassed for the teachers who seem to have failed them.

            • @RubberElectrons
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              115 days ago

              $10 says the teachers tried. Getting blood out of a rock is hard, never mind getting imagination into one.