- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Misinformation campaigns increasingly target the cavity-fighting mineral, prompting communities to reverse mandates. Dentists are enraged. Parents are caught in the middle.
The culture wars have a new target: your teeth.
Communities across the U.S. are ending public water fluoridation programs, often spurred by groups that insist that people should decide whether they want the mineral — long proven to fight cavities — added to their water supplies.
The push to flush it from water systems seems to be increasingly fueled by pandemic-related mistrust of government oversteps and misleading claims, experts say, that fluoride is harmful.
“The anti-fluoridation movement gained steam with Covid,” said Dr. Meg Lochary, a pediatric dentist in Union County, North Carolina. “We’ve seen an increase of people who either don’t want fluoride or are skeptical about it.”
There should be no question about the dental benefits of fluoride, Lochary and other experts say. Major public health groups, including the American Dental Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, support the use of fluoridated water. All cite studies that show it reduces tooth decay by 25%.
“Medical freedom”, the rallying cry for all kinds of grifters spreading disinformation and wanting to roll back the progress made in public health.
And they don’t seem to like the fact that they have the freedom to filter the fluoride back out of the water.
…what?
AND THEY DON’T SEEM TO LIKE THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE THE FREEDOM TO FILTER THE FLUORIDE BACK OUT OF THE WATER.
fluoride is not easy to filter - its smaller than water molecules.
Right.
Let’s put any amount of contaminates in our drinking water just so people can “filter them out.”
I swear, some of you people are just too far gone.
Again, there are places where fluoride occurs naturally in drinking water at higher concentrations than it is added artificially and there don’t seem to be significant health problems.
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Hmmmmm no ! I’m not against fluoride in water, I don’t care since I don’t live in north america but spreading disinformation does not help.
There is regions, especially in India, where fluoride occurs by naturally in water in high concentration which is causing multiple serious health issues.
Neurology of endemic skeletal fluorosis
“There are higher concentrations of fluoride in water than we usually put in it that is still healthy to drink” != “Any concentration of fluoride in water is safe”
Any substance becomes toxic if you ingest too much of it. If you exceed by a factor of 20 the amount of plenty of things people usually consume, it isn’t difficult to find things that are dangerous or even lethal. Say, coffee, beer, anti-inflammatories, chocolate, Coke.
Cool. I said higher concentrations that are added artificially, not extremely high concentration.
Except fluoride isn’t a contaminate.
According to what?
Every single scientific study regarding the use of fluoride in drinking water to help protect oral health. Link me a scientific study that proves flouride in drinking water is harmful.
sadfsdfasfasf
Says who?
Yes, the World Heath Organization (WHO) does say it is not a contaminent and that appropriate levels are needed.
sadfsdfasfasf
Literally every person who understands science and water treatment
“Contaminants” 🙄
medical freedom for me, but not for thee who want no more penis.
🥱
Or, give people the option to choose for themselves.
Scientific consensus has been wrong many times before, and it will be wrong many times again.
You do have the option to choose for yourself.
You can not only choose to filter it out, you can choose which filter you want to purchase from a selection. Here you go. https://apexwaterfilters.com/blogs/top-5-water-filters-to-remove-fluoride-from-water/
Right.
Let’s put any amount of contaminates in our drinking water just so people can “filter them out.”
Someone mentioned arsenic earlier in this thread, and I think I can find some study that says arsenic is good for you. Let’s add it to our water and anyone who thinks it’s harmful can just filter it out.
Also, I’m adding my fecal matter to the water supply to improve people’s microbiomes. They can just filter it out if they don’t like it.
Fluoride is not a contaminant, but please do find a study that says arsenic is good for you. This should be interesting.
Says who?
https://gizmodo.com/hey-remember-when-people-used-to-eat-arsenic-as-a-heal-1676316276
It’s not a study, but there was a time when people believed arsenic wasn’t poisonous. There were most likely scientists back in the day advocating for its usage. You can find their work if you’re really interested.
A more recent and easier to research example would be all the “studies” saying lead is safe. Do I have to specifically point to those, or can you understand my point without it?
Okay, so note what you claimed.
It’s not my job to prove you aren’t lying.
I mean, if you don’t want to understand then you won’t understand.
I’ve done my part. If you want to replace arsenic with lead, then will it make sense?
Probably not because you don’t want to understand.
Also,
Says who?
You conveniently ignored this part.
sadfsdfasfasf
I’m struggling with this.
You’re saying that because science was wrong about something else, it must be wrong about fluoride?
I think that if you really dig into it, you’ll find that arsenic use wasn’t supported by science, but rather snake oil salesmen.
This is where your confusion comes from. I never said it’s wrong about fluoride.
My point is that unless you understand the science yourself, you have faith in other people who do. Scientific consensus has been wrong in the past, and it will be wrong again in the future.
Everyone saying with such certainty that fluoride is good or bad without understanding the science themselves just highlights how most people treat science like a religion.
That’s just not true. By it’s very nature, what we describe as “science” is reproducible. That means faith is not required.
If you understand the science yourself, then you’re correct.
The problem is that most people don’t understand the science and just have faith in other people who might.
No, my point is that because “science” is reproducible, you do not need faith in the people producing said science, nor do you need to understand it.
You merely need to confirm that it has been reviewed and accepted by other people who do understand it.
Have faith.
The thing that seriously hurts those anti-fluoridation nuts is that fluoride can naturally be in water supplies and there are water supplies with higher PPM fluoride amounts than municipalities that add them in the U.S., but there don’t appear to be any increased health issues.
Not that such people generally care.
As I said to a friend years ago: show me one case of fluoride poisoning…just one and I’ll believe you that it’s dangerous.
He couldn’t. End of discussion.
Children can theoretically get fluorosis in their teeth if they chug mouthwash, but it’s a pretty uncommon thing to do.
But… but… freedom!
Found this through a quick internet search if you’re interested.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199401133300203
Internets sleuthing points to you!
A massive accidental overdose (150x) in a water system, leading to acute illness and one death, for those interested.
Potential Role of Fluoride in the Etiopathogenesis of Alzheimer’s Disease
Aluminium and fluoride in drinking water in relation to later dementia risk
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You just might be the dumbest motherfucker on Lemmy.
We evolved to get our nutrients from natural sources, some of those sources water … and we are filtering a lot of it out arbitrarily then being afraid to put it back.
There was an argument made a while back that filtering the lithium out of our water is messing with folks too.
So we took the lead out of the air and that made people less crazy, but we also took the lithium out of the water and that made people more crazy.
Hooray us.
To be fair we were putting the lead into the air in the first place.
Good luck getting the powers that be to start lithidating water.
That’s actually how we discovered that fluoride in public drinking water is good for your teeth. Colorado Springs had natural fluoride in their drinking water and their rate of cavities was way lower than the national average, so some dentists searched around to figure out the cause.
For once, the answer to a question posed in the headline is obviously yes.
yeah. Im happily surprised the article itself was not about the conspiracy nonsense.
It’s still platforming the conspiracy though and bringing it to more people’s attention.
I don’t think bringing attention to conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories is bad. If anything its a good thing. I mean if it was the about the lizard aliens or flat earthers it would be the same.
I’m not so sure about that after the last 8-9 years of political discourse in the US. You assume bringing light to them means people will see how ridiculous they are, but in reality they just bring the conspiracy into the forefront, where people then take sides and dig their heels in.
Trump getting a ton of coverage as the laughing stock candidate leading up to the 2016 election gave him the edge he needed to win while the rest of us thought the coverage would lead to a landslide victory for his opponent.
the other side of the coin is then its the “truth” mainstream media is hiding. ¯_ (ツ)_/¯
They have their freedom, they are free to do whatever they want to filter their own drinking water. They’re free to buy or produce distilled water for all their consumption. They’re free to only ever drink beer. But the drinking water provided as a public good should be maintained for the good of the public, and when the studies are pretty clear that fluoridated water fights tooth decay, then fluoridated water it is.
Hear hear! Or is it: here here! Or may I’ll stick with: preach, brother!
Hey, a article that bucks Betteridge’s Law.
Of course there’s no question, yes, and Republicans and communities should be ashamed at being this stupid to cater to such a dumb, ridiculous, and small group of idiots and are going to cost everyone more in dental insurance to socialize the cost of their stupidity.
So we’ve circled back to to water/fluoride water conspiracies again?
History, doomed to repeat, before our very eyes once more…
Can always rely on the classics to stir up the rubes. A new sucker born every minute.
I’m very much on the pro-flouride but it came up in a conversation with my coworker who won’t drink tap water.
I said that in a country without universal healthcare, fluoride is free dental care. He said he agreed about the benefit to teeth but his concern was with what it might do to your body. He’s a health nut but not a conspiracy theories and I was really thrown off and didn’t have a counterpoint.
I just assumed it was fine because I knew fluoride is often found in water naturally…but…can someone with more knowledge tell me how they would have replied? I don’t like speaking on things I can’t back up with data so I just let it go
If the stupid motherfucker brushes his teeth twice daily, he’s already introducing loads more fluoride to his body than any of the trace amounts they add into the public water system, which is still standards of deviation less than anything that would introduce fluorosis of childrens’ teeth (since that’s not possible for adults with developed teeth), let alone get to a level of toxicity for an adult.
Now, if he regularly consumes full tubes of toothpaste as a health supplement, then maybe that’s a reason to be concerned about fluoride.
All right settle down, he’s not a stupid motherfucker. He isn’t advocating to remove it from tap water, he was just saying why HE doesn’t drink tap. He didn’t try to pursuade me.
Perhaps he’s misguided on that but he is not the person you’re probably picturing.
My friend is a doctor and he also doesn’t drink tap but for him it’s the other contaminates, not flouride
As someone who works directly with water treatment systems, at best he’s an ignorant motherfucker. But good news: ignorance can be fixed.
Ignorant, sure, but he’s not stupid. Flouride in water is not for people like him who already take great care of their teeth - it’s for people who don’t.
It’s not stupid to avoid consuming something that doesn’t benefit you. Like I know lithium is used safely to treat bipolar but I don’t have bipolar so I wouldn’t be stupid for wanting it filtered out. Like I said, he doesn’t advocate for its removal - he just doesn’t want to drink it himself
You ever hear the joke about an American tourist only drinking alcohol on a trip to Mexico, because you can’t trust the water, and then someone asking them where they got their ice cubes?
On the other hand, at least back when I was there as an American teenager in the 90s, avoiding the water in Mexico was a good plan.
Parents: It’s okay to drink the water in this town, we drove past a water treatment plant.
Me: Absolutely no way.
Guess who didn’t regret saying “absolutely no way?”
No but that’s pretty good
Well, the thing about your friend is that even if he were only drinking boiled well water or whatever, he’s still consuming plenty of the metaphorical ice cubes.
I’d say that’s the only real point the anti-flouridation crowd has, really. Even if they want to opt out, they can’t. Even if their local water utility stops flouridation, anything shipped in will still have it, be it bottled water, frozen meals, anything that uses tap water in production, really.
Yes he is. If you’re unironically wary of fluoride you’re a stupid motherfucker
I would’ve agreed with this a few years ago, but when you realize things can have subtle effects on our body that aren’t easy to measure or readily apparent, you shouldn’t fully trust something just because studies say it’s safe. A study can’t really show that “50 years of repeated exposure caused slightly more exhaustion,” for example.
However, we DO know tooth decay is a major health risk for our whole bodies. Avoiding a maybe possibly slightly harmful chemical isn’t stupid, but avoiding something that prevents known and documented dental harm and the effects that has on your entire body, that’s just letting fear override rational thinking.
Ok buddy
There is non fluoridated toothpaste. Not that I would use it but it does exist.
Consider he might use unfluoridated toothpaste?
Toxicity does exist and is studied: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/
You would kill yourself drinking too much water long before you’d have to worry about fluoride toxicity in the US. Part of our water treatment protocols also include reducing fluoride levels when they’re naturally too high.
Dude, that’s for the odds someone might have hypothyroidism, not at all related to toxicity.
And as noted by the authors:
“Hence, the application of standard household water purification (such as reversed osmosis, electro dialysis, activated carbon filter, and other adsorption/ion-exchange methods) is recommended for patients with hypothyroidism since they have a higher consumption of drinking water. The purification systems can help remove fluoride that interferes with thyroid functions.”
So, if you have a family history of hypothyroidism, and you care at all about trying to avoid this incredibly common and easily treatable issue; use a water filter. It probably won’t help since family history and regular exercise are much more highly correlated with the incidence of hypothyroidism, but sure, why not.
Also, and this is fun, they conveniently ignore the fact that the people drinking the most water (5+ cups group) have a lower adjusted-odds-ratio (OR) of hypothyroidism.
How about the part where the level of fluoride in the water being in the higher end of the spectrum (0.3-0.5 mg/L) gives you a *checks notes* oh yeah, 3.4% higher incidence rate of hypothyroidism. Right.
And apparently even flourosis is only a cosmetic …illness? Honestly if Americans weren’t so obsessed with the cosmetics of teeth they might not even really notice. Like to the extent that people will strip their enamel in an attempt to whiten them. Even I had to look up what it was.
Flouride helps prevent tooth decay. Tooth decay is painful and can lead to much more serious condition…it’s not just fluorosis it protects against.Misinterpreted their comment
…the flourosis is caused by too much flouride. I’m saying people are worried about the side effects of too much flouride when they’re pretty much entirely cosmetic anyway. If you’re gonna “um akshully” on the internet at least Google it first.
Ya know, sometimes people misread or misinrerpret comments and you don’t need to be a dick about it
It has cosmetic effects but can also have some more serious effect, like weaker bones, neurological disorder, rupture of the stomach lining or ossified ligaments.
wikipedia - Skeletal fluorosis
I’m having thyroid problems, and in trying to research iodine, I have found that fluoride can have a negative impact on thyroid function. This link is the best I can do on the subject, given that I’m not sure how to find much trustworthy information. It says that as long as iodine intake is sufficient, the fluoride shouldn’t be a problem. But I’m finding conflicting info on what constitutes sufficient iodine intake.
If you consume any iodized salt you should be good on that, unless you have a medical condition that prevents your body from absorbing it properly. In fact people don’t really get goiters anymore since the introduction of iodized salt which was done to prevent said goiters(a goiter is a swollen thyroid from lack of iodine intake iirc).
I was not using iodized salt at all. I think since “elevated” cooking has become so popular, I can’t be the only one who was eschewing it (Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat straight up recommends avoiding it). I also don’t eat much seafood. When I was diagnosed hypothyroid 25 years ago, I was told I had a goiter. And not told much else.
I’m just an internet rando, but I’d definitely recommend talking to your doctor about iodized salt intake or alternatives. Iodine was added to salt when they figured out people living in middle America away from the shorelines had severe iodine deficiencies and goiters were very common. That’s all I know about it. I just like weird history tidbits like that
Interesting, thanks for the link! I figured there had to be something to it because he’s a really smart guy and not in any way conspiratorial. His teeth are also in great shape so his way of living doesn’t appear to be hurting anyone.
For the record, he was not preaching. I was just filling up from the kitchen sink while he used the filtered water thingy so it came up. He was talking only about himself when he expressed his concern
ah sick, as someone with vitiligo, this is yet another thing i should put on the extremely metaphorical back burner here.
(the partial joke here is that people with vitiligo have increased chances of having thyroidal issues due to the immune system or whatever the fuck, health is fun.)
Mercury is naturally occurring in water as well. That’s not really a guide to go by.
idk probably maybe tell him to never put anything into his mouth that isn’t IMMEDIATELY sterilized, before, during and after the process of entering your mouth for fear of possible contaminants getting into your body.
I know you’re being sarcastic but I at least appreciate that you actually answered my question unlike the other replies.
im not being sarcastic tbh. If you’re that concerned about something like fluoride in the water, you best be sure you never accidentally touch the ground outside, and then put your hand near your mouth.
There are so many more significant things to worry about, even being near someone who is sick is probably going to be more detrimental to your health.
but yes i am definitely being dramatic, it’s fun :)
Ok, replace sarcastic with hyperbolic and I still appreciate it. Everyone else is just shitting on my coworker like he’s MAGA flat earther. What I should have really said is that he consumes more flouride by brushing his teeth than he would drinking tap water
yeah, at the end of the day it’s important to be capable of gauging the importance of something. Even more so than actually understanding that specific within the importance.
But because of my sugar intake, my teeth are shit anyway
/s
Put the lithium in already.
Fuck it, put in arsenic
heavy metal riff
Ah. The benefits of being a boron based lifeform.
I absolutely can’t stand minty or cinnamon toothpaste, and have really struggled with brushing my teeth because of it. It drives me absolutely insane that so many of the flavors I can tolerate are only available in fluoride free formulations and/or get discontinued.
I have issues with brushing too. I have a nerve disorder in my face which makes brushing my teeth extremely painful, so I can’t do it all that often. I definitely benefit from fluoridated drinking water.
Ouch, that must really suck! I’m not dealing with actual physical pain here, just hate the minty fresh feeling in my mouth. Does mouthwash cause pain for you? I’ve never really used it, but briefly wondered if I could use a fluoride free toothpaste plus a fluoridated mouthwash, but I think I ran into the same issue with limited fluoridated flavors.
Mouthwash does not cause pain for me, but I think that’s pretty disgusting and I’m currently dealing with a different health problem that involves heaving. Hooray shitty genes. I may resort to it one day if I have to.
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I never said my teeth were perfect, I said I get a benefit.
I mean, if you still get cavities and gum disease then what benefit are you really getting?
Fewer cavities and less gum disease. I’m not sure why you don’t consider making something less of a health problem to be beneficial.
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Be as dubious as you like.
I never said that, you did.
Yes, I explained why.
You seem to be a very nosey person with strange opinions. Seems like you can easily do something about it, while Flying Squid can’t. Maybe take this opportunity?
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So, I do brush my teeth at least daily (I shoot for twice, but I’m not going to pretend that always happens), and I’ve recently started flossing once daily (recently as in, it was my New Years resolution).
I’ve only had cavities twice in my life - once when I spent 2 years living in Okinawa, and once when I got back from a deployment where we were advised to only drink bottled water.
No other adjustments to my routine. The only thing I can chalk it up to is the lack of fluoride in both instances. And like I said, I’m not someone who takes immaculate care of my teeth.
Edit: Purely anecdotal experience, obviously, I just really couldn’t come up with an alternative answer 🤷♀️
Crest two in one shield is strawberry flavor with fluoride. Source: I have a teen with the same aversion. It doesn’t have animals or anything on it, but it is a “kids” toothpaste. You’d never know without reading it though, so I thought I’d mention it. Sorry if you’ve already heard of that one.
I haven’t tried it, but will keep it in mind. I’m currently using the Hello brand toothpastes. They seem to be a little less sweet than most other kids toothpastes, which is a big plus for me. I like their bubblegum and orange flavors best, and the blue raspberry isn’t bad either. They have some other flavors without fluoride, so you have to pay attention though.
Orange? I’m going to have to try that one, that actually sounds amazing.
Yeah, Crest used to sell an orange flavored toothpaste that wasn’t a kid’s product, and when it got discontinued, I paid about $30 for 3 tubes, so I was super excited to find another orange toothpaste. The only challenge is that very few stores carry the orange one, so I think I ended up buying it directly from the manufacturer website.
Oh man I don’t remember the orange toothpaste, but I remember when Crest had the orange mouthwash bc that was my jam.
I love cinnamon, it’s so hard to find anymore, in contrast to your hatred, I wish they made more of it, but I also believe that they should be open to more flavors that aren’t just oriented toward children.
Huh. I see quite a few cinnamon options online, but I wouldn’t be surprised that it’s harder to find in physical stores. They really seem to be cutting back on options everywhere lately. I found a brand that I like, so I just order a few tubes at a time from their website.
Aquafresh Extreme or whatever has a citrusy taste with a hint of mint. I love it, but my fiance hates it. It’s called Mint Blast, but it’s so minty that it doesn’t taste minty to me.
You might like it, or you might hate it with the fire of a thousand suns.
OMG, both “extreme” and “blast” in combination with the word “mint” make me feel very strongly that I’ll hate it! Haha. That whole “icy fresh” breath thing is so uncomfortable to me. When I’m done brushing my teeth, I just want my mouth to feel neutral.
I read your comment earlier today and then by chance was going to reorder toothpaste tonight, and I realized the kind of toothpaste I recently fell in love with has a citrus and a grape flavor, so I hunted down your comment to share with you!
The toothpaste has both fluoride and hydroxyapatite, which helps rebuild enamel. Ever since I started using hydroxyapatite, my teeth have that “fresh from the dentist clean” feeling every time I brush them. I was using a Japanese brand of toothpaste for a few years because that’s the only place I found that kind of toothpaste, but it was fluoride free. Just one tube ago I found a brand that has both!
The brand is Carifree, and this is the one I use.
Looks like they also have citrus and grape mouthwash!
And I thought I was crazy when I paid $10 for a 6oz tube! Hahah. I do need a new dentist though, so I might just try one of the dentists near me that carries their stuff so I can grab a tube.
Yeah, I should have mentioned the price is pretty insane… I’d desensitized myself to it a bit because of the whole buying-Japanese-toothpaste thing wasn’t cheap, and now I just can’t stand not using hydroxyapatite for more than like a week, lol.
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Here in Germany, drinking water isn’t fluoridated but fluoridated salt is sold at every grocery store. I assume that fluoridated salt isn’t as easily available to those in the US who could now end up without fluoridated water, is it?
I have never seen fluoridated salt in the U.S. Our salt usually has iodine in it to make up for the iodine deficiency that was in American diets before that happened.
We’ve got both iodine and fluoride in our salt in Germany.
Das healthenboostensodiumchloride?
Nein, das Jodsalz mit Fluorid.
We should not be encouraging the least among us.
And yet the least among us is now the Republican candidate for president.
Again.
… Again.
I’m running for president?
There’s at least one person worse than you and he’s running for president.
Tom Hanks?
Yes. The answer is yes.
Ask the experts. You’ll find their names have “D.D.S” after them.
Do what they say.
Dentists are not scientists though. They suffer from a limited data set and all the other cognitive problems that we invented science to counteract.
Having said that, scientists should not make policy, but inform public health experts, who understand that science does not tell you what to do, but just the best current view of reality. These experts have to take into account cost/benefit ratios as well as science from a wide set of fields.
Luckily for fluoride in the water, they all agree!
Ok fine ask the nice lady in the lab coat on those Colgate commercials instead.
The only thing “bad” about flouride I know that is true is that it can lower DHT levels in your blood. I put bad in quotes because I don’t know what DHT actually does, but the conspiracy I’ve heard is that DHT is needed to dream and imagine, so by drinking fluoridated water you’re destroying your own creativity or whatever.
I always thought it was funny.
A friend of mine who believed a lot of conspiracy theories told me it was bad because it calcifies your pineal gland. I called bullshit and googled it.
Turns out, it actually does. There was no proof at the time that this causes any sort of issues, but there it was. I was unhappy that they were actually right about something; I didn’t want to give them the idea that any of their other crazy ideas had any validity.
lol
Like telling chemtrail believers about crop dusters.
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Pretty sure the pineal gland can just calcify with age, it’s not something to be worried about.
Well, DHT can cause hair loss in people that are sensitive to it. But it’s also an essential androgen for men. Overall, you probably don’t want to decrease the natural levels in men, but lots of different, entirely normal things can cause fluctuations in hormonal levels, so it’s likely not a large concern.
Yeah that’s #1 bullshit. DHT is a sex steroid and hormone that defines the male genitalia during the embryonic development. It builds out the entire male reproductive system right down to pubic hair.
Steroids always affect testosterone and that mostly affects men because they carry substantially more. So that’s sort of a clue in what area they target.
Creativity and “intelligence” are entirely abstract, human concepts. There is no one mechanism that governs them let alone a single hormone for that matter.
Also, just want to point out that our ancestors had literally perfect teeth. Perfect. Crooked and fucked up teeth is a modern infliction (no one really knows why). So just sayin.
I would adore to see your sources on this
This isn’t some occult knowledge, a simple search will show many results concuring but here is one source:
Aye I suppose a lot would be explained by the fact that the skulls they find are likely to be people who died in their 20s and 30s, as was the fashion back then
Cheers. It’s wild people still prefer to believe that fluoride makes them dumber and less creative lol.
What an absolute dumpster fire 🤪
So your argument is to return to pre-agricultural life in order to not have fluoride in our water supply?
I didn’t make any argument whatsoever, just provided a source.
Happy adoring I guess