I mean in all fairness we did tell them that exactly this would happen. It’s their open damn fault they, and the rest of us, now have to try and survive in the still-rotting corpse of democracy.
Edit, add: Their self centered, short-sighted voting choice has screwed over everybody else along with them. I’m not going to feel particularly bad about the hardships they’ve invited on themselves, whether through stupidity, logical fallacy, ignorance, emotional thinking, or (in the case of actual T supporters) actually believing blatantly stupid bullshit.
That is not a new pose for Republicans.
From 2011:
Newt Gingrich is standing by comments he made earlier this week when he called the Palestinians an “invented” people. “Remember, there was no Palestine as a state.”
You’re kidding, right? There’s no way the guy’s name is literally “newt grinch”!
I would like to recall some comments saying “Kamala is worse than the same”
Imagine unironically making this meme. I envy the history students in 2138 who get to study this crap and scratch their heads
The History students of the Future will watch all those who sat by as complicit in the rise of an authoritarian racist President in the USA
I’m pretty sure the anti-genocide people were the ones violently confronting Nazis four years ago while the Democratic mainstream said that wasnt the right way to do things.
Probably lots of overlap with the people who blockaded and flooded airports and courts to stop the Muslim ban.
Probably closely related to the people who put their bodies on the line and blockaded ICE detention facilities.
I’d bet they were involved in organizing the BLM protests too.
Depend what they will write in history books…
Imagine not understanding first past the post elections and harm reduction.
The people of Palestine asked us to vote against Trump. But they’re not worth listening to. They’re not even real.
A very tiny majority of people think of Gaza in the voting booth.
A solid chunk of gen z sat out for this reason bc dumbass shit they saw on tiktok
Hey! I had fuckin nothing to do with this!
we are simultaneously a small amd pathetic minority, but also able to swing a major election on a major country. just pick one already.
I mean, honestly, I don’t think people protesting Democrats because of the genocide were what caused Dems to lose. I honestly believe it was because the Dems refused to acknowledge that times are hard for non-billionaires. That being said, anyone who voted for trump thinking he’d be better is an absolute fool.
i don’t think leftists voted for trump though.
it’s almost like every vote matters.
*~only applies to swing states~
None of them voted for Trump. You can look at the voting numbers. Trump’s numbers are pretty much in line with what he got in 2020. He didn’t gain votes she lost them. People stayed home.
Staying home this election was a vote for Trump. Hope they like it.
At a certain point Democrats are going to have to remember that they can’t just rely on the other side being worse. If you don’t sell yourself to your voters if you don’t give them a reason to vote for you then you’re going to keep losing. They act entitled to everyone’s votes. Entitlement is a big problem when it comes to Democrats. People didn’t respond to them saying it was Hillary’s turn. People didn’t seem to respond to them saying it was Harris’s turn. Democrats don’t seem to like democracy. They claim to, but when it comes time to participating democracy they’re not big fans.
At a certain point Democrats are going to have to remember that they can’t just rely on the other side being worse.
If this election didn’t wake them the fuck up, then nothing will. I’m not expecting anything to change though. It’s going to be the same every election because they refuse to make a meaningful change.
Democrats don’t seem to like democracy. Voters don’t care about democracy. Republicans actually hate democracy.
Why do we follow democracy again? Let’s just give Trump endless terms, once and for all.
I don’t think we really need to concern ourselves with such trivial things as what the Democrats should do next time.
Yeah, about that ship that you think hasn’t sailed yet…
There’s not going to be a next election for you, kitties.
Drag has not confirmed this rumour, but has heard that Trump got less votes in solid states and more votes in swing states. Apparently it was a lower turnout election in all categories except for Trump voters in swing states.
I’m just gonna keep hammering this in for a while. 81 million Democrats voted in 2020, but only 71 million this year. Trump won by 3.5 million. But hey, at least all you righteous little angels aren’t “complicit in genocide”, right? Think about that while you polish your halos. YOU did this.
This was the second highest turnout in a hundred years. In the seven swing states turnout either met or exceeded 2020. This is not an interesting point.
I think people on this site put way too much weight on the importance of Gaza for the american voter.
The Harris campaign made plenty of other unforced errors as well. Campaigning with Liz Cheney was certainly a choice.
But hey, at least all you righteous little angels aren’t “complicit in genocide”, right? Think about that while you polish your halos. YOU did this.
How are you sure that all the missing votes are caused by Pro-Palestinian purity non-voters?
They aren’t. But if one of them is, then that one person helped caused this. If ten thousand of them are, then those ten thousand people helped cause this.
This is not about finding the one person or group who bears sole responsibility and pointing the finger at them to excuse everyone else. This is about what each person has within their control, and whether they did the right thing.
So instead of blaming Pro-Palestinian people, why aren’t they looking into why voter turnout is so low?
Because we already know. Voter turnout is low because Americans don’t mind having a fascist dictator. Some of them just didn’t care, and some of them thought becoming the Fourth Reich and blowing up Palestine was a decent way to teach Kamala a lesson.
Some of them just didn’t care, and some of them thought becoming the Fourth Reich and blowing up Palestine was a decent way to teach Kamala a lesson
Again, you are focusing on Pro-Palestinians for some reason when you don’t know their impact.
No. Drag didn’t mention anyone who was pro-palestine at all in drag’s comment. If you’re pro-palestine and you felt targeted when drag blamed the election on people who want to blow up Palestine to teach Kamala a lesson, it might be time for some introspection.
Drag didn’t mention anyone who was pro-palestine at all in drag’s comment
some of them thought becoming the Fourth Reich and blowing up Palestine was a decent way to teach Kamala a lessonlmao @ “might be time for some introspection,” I don’t need advice regarding introspection from someone with a gimmick, I voted Kamala btw
Voter turnout wasn’t low.
and whether they did the right thing.
So the Democrats were doing the right thing by continuing to unapologetically support a fascist foreign leader in his continued Genocide?
Regardless of who anyone voted for, they voted to support a genocide, and it’s 100% on the Democrats to even put people in that position to begin with. “You can’t vote Trump, he’s a fascist! He’ll support a genocide!”
Voters: Like… You are?
Dems: …well that’s different!!!
This is not about finding the one person or group who bears sole responsibility and pointing the finger at them to excuse everyone else. This is about what each person has within their control, and whether they did the right thing.
There is no “right” thing because every single person will define it differently. To me, the right thing is supporting the working class and not supporting a fascist genocide. To you, “right” is “stop fascism, no matter what.” To another commenter, “right” might be choosing to abstain from voting because none of the candidates represent the direction or policies you feel are most important.
To Republicans, the “right” thing is to establish a christofascist autocracy. Or it’s to stop the dirty Dems. Or it’s to stop abortion.
So “right” is irrelevant, the “right” thing to do was for the Democrats to actually listen to the American people and the policies that are popular to them, and then rally that energy into a larger voter turnout. That was the only right thing to do, especially when a loss will result in fascism.
You don’t get to lecture the voters about not understanding the “right” thing to do when the leaders of the political party that’s supposed to be the last bastion against fascism honestly seemed to phone the whole fucking thing in. And this stems from the entitlement that I’ve been ranting about the DNC having for years. You aren’t entitled to anyone’s vote, regardless of “right v wrong” as far as candidates are concerned.
The Dems needed to earn their votes, and they decided a centrist campaign based on the promise that nothing will be substantially different from the last Dem who Americans feel (whether they’re right or not is irrelevant) hasn’t improved their lives substantially. Americans want change, and the Dems could do nothing during “tHe MoSt ImPoRtAnT eLeCtIoN oF oUr LiFeTiMeS” than promise the American people 4 more years of the status quo.
Dem Leaders: Wow, we had record voter turnout in 2020 running Biden on policies that Bernie had initially run on, progressive policies that seemed popular among the base! So what should our strategy be to stop fascism in 2024?
Dem Consultants: Eh, just rerun the 2016 playbook and send out 30 texts a day begging for money. We only raised over a billion dollars, we don’t need to spend that on studies and polls to find out what policies would get us voters, nah. It’s Trump, he’s a fascist moron that got trounced in 2020, we got this in the bag.
How come it’s everyone’s responsibility not to vote for genocide, but you’re allowed to abstain for genocide as much as you want if you can point the finger at a politician? Like, it’s 100% Kamala’s fault you let Trump win and you therefore have zero culpability, but the voters who tried to prevent that are personally to blame for Joe Biden’s failures.
How come it’s everyone’s responsibility not to vote for genocide
Because it’s genocide… Do you think the victims care if the person sending Netanyahu his bombs has a D or R next to their name?
but you’re allowed to abstain for genocide as much as you want if you can point the finger at a politician?
Yeah, that’s how the right to vote works. Can you point to the voters who are holding a gun to Biden’s head and forcing him to support a fascist leader and his genocide?
Can you point to the voters who held a gun to Kamala’s head and forced her to adopt the same policy on Israel that Biden’s administration has adhered to? Despite it being incredibly unpopular among his party’s voting base?
Like, it’s 100% Kamala’s fault you let Trump win and you therefore have zero culpability,
I voted for Harris, and my state went to Harris, so no, I did not “let Trump win.”
But yeah dude, it’s 100% Harris’ fault. You don’t get to support a genocide and then try to play morally superior to your fascist opponent who supports the same genocide…
And you don’t get to complain that it’s the voter’s fault that they wouldn’t support a candidate who wouldn’t denounce genocide, or even commit to just not supporting it like the admin she’s part of is.
Would y’all be defending the genocide and Harris/Biden’s unconditional support of it if it resulted in a draft for Americans, but not necessarily yourself? Or better yet, if you were a Palestinian in Palestine, would you be begging America to vote for Harris because of LGBTQ+ rights, or the economy’s soft landing? Or would you be asking them why they won’t elect someone who won’t support a genocide?
but the voters who tried to prevent that are personally to blame for Joe Biden’s failures.
I’m not blaming voters, period. They were given the choice between Diet Fascism or Fascism, and I don’t blame anyone for sitting that out. I fully acknowledged that regardless of my choice, I was supporting a genocide, and those lives are now at my feet.
But to act like voters have any fault in this is laughable. The DNC laid down with dogs and were shocked when they got up covered in fleas. They gave Republicans numerous spots to speak at their convention, but none to the Palestinian Democrats that the Uncommitted Movement requested be allowed to speak.
What do you call a table of 10 people sitting down with a Nazi?
11 Nazis.
You should probably write 11 more paragraphs on how everyone who voted against genocide is a nazi, just in case somebody didn’t read your first two screenfuls of text
You should probably write 11 more paragraphs on how everyone who voted against genocide is a nazi, just in case somebody didn’t read your first two screenfuls of text
So just not going to try to address any of what I had to say with your own thoughts, opinions, or evidence? Just going to snidely make a comment about how I write as if your brevity somehow makes you right?
There’s that elitist, liberal entitlement the average American loves to see from the DNC. 👍 Keep winning over voters, drag, you’re doing God’s work.
I haven’t seen you explain to me how supporting Israel’s genocide unconditionally doesn’t make Harris and Biden fascist, unless I missed it scrolling by my two “screenfuls” of text. 🙄
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKBJoj4XyFc
I linked this higher in this thread, but I need everyone to watch Jon Stewart’s post-mortem on Harris’ campaign. Like y’all are blaming EVERYTHING on pro-Palestinians, while not even acknowledging the republican-lite ads and interviews the Democrats ran coinciding with a bunch of pro-corporate consultants that joined her campaign in September. Or the fact that a segment of the population doesn’t like Trump, but is also racist/sexist enough to not want a black woman as president either.
Lemmy thinks they’re smarter than the MAGA crowd, but fall for neoliberal corporate sponsored propaganda instead. First it was hispanic men, then it was Gen Z, now it’s Palestine supporters. Meanwhile 57% of white people as a demographic voted for Trump, and MSNBC nor Fox News has nothing to say about that.
What is your point though, are you saying Trump and Harris are equivalent?
Of course I’m not. And if you watched Jon Stewart’s segment I linked you would understand exactly why “Trump is worse so vote Harris” doesn’t work as a gotcha.
And I voted for her, too, before you bring that up as well.
Nailed it on the head.
People want a straw man to light ablaze and blame everything on.
I’m asking you to make a point, and filling in the blank with an example which I’m glad was incorrect. So what is your point.
The Dems could have forced a ceasefire. The Muslim contingent warned them months ago and polling very clear showed that a ceasefire would have likely changed the result in several critical swing states.
Right. Team America: world police rite?
Get a good grip, child.
“Why are we responsible for the bombs we keep sending to Israel?”
They can’t bomb Gaza without american bombs or defend Tell Aviv without American GPS or or or or.
Oh bullshit. The only way to get a ceasefire is for the Israeli people to force out Netanyahu. Nothing short of that or invading would make a difference.
eh. kinda missing the point. they didn’t even try and the polling was clear-- this policy would lose the Dems the election.
Also, South African dock workers have managed to organize and block the transfer of Israeli military goods through their ports. You telling me that South African port workers are more capable of following international law than the Us government? well, fuck it, how do I vote for them then?
Israel has its own weapons industry. Not that it matters. The Palestinians are defenseless. They could use machetes and nothing would stop them except what I already pointed out.
Yes, but they don’t have their own satellite constellation or nanometer chip forges and many of of their fancy weapons systems would be rendered useless by an Alibaba gps jammer.
Granted, this wouldn’t do a whole lot for the IMU guided systems, but the US has literally been shooting down missiles in transit for a year when they fly towards Israel. you telling me that shit only works in one direction?
“My purity is a precious delicate flower, I’m not going to soil it by voting for Democrats. Palestinians can take comfort in that!”
“Why can’t my politicians mesmerize me every day? I don’t want no competent government nerds in Washington, I need to be mesmerized every day to muster up the precious energy to go and vote!”
I will never, EVER overestimate or respect the younger generations, who can vote and won’t. They have now shown themselves to be as ignorant stupid and heartless and fickle and impatient and lazy as medieval peasants.
They are just as fucked up as their baby boomer parents or grandparents who gave Reagan and his cadre of assholes the keys to the kingdom.
I love how you said “complicit in genocide” unironically.
Really shows low standards have fallen for Democrats.
Denotes sarcasm. Trump et al. Will increase the genocide instead of having a shot at stopping it. They are still complicit in genocide, more so, arguably
The only thing arguable here is whether or not Democrats still possess any degree of objectivity.
They had hard data that continuing to enthusiastically support and fund genocide would cost them at the polls. Then, approximately ten million people decide not to vote. It’s asinine to take the stance that the voters are at fault here. This argument is like punching someone in the face and then blaming the victim for the fact that you injured your hand.
Absolutely more so, not voting against Trump was morally reprehensible because of what he will do to Gaza as well as people here
I am not convinced any significant number of people voted for Trump because they supported Palestine. Feels like a massive straw man meant to stoke divisions in the left.
They didn’t vote for Trump - they misunderstood the system that was in place.
Republican citizen groups have been going over the rolls in key states and removing by challenge registered Democrats who had any small errors on their registration sowing confusion and making otherwise eligible people ineligible.
Republican resources were used to amplify third party candidates who never had a hope of success due to the nature of construction of the system to create spoiler effects. If you thought Jill Stein was a real electable option you can look back at prior elections.
The concept of moral abstention from this election removed people who otherwise would have voted Democrat as the lesser of two possible evils from the system.
Basically since First past the post is a winner take all system Even if 70 percent of the public hates the Republican platform all they have to do is win a majority voting share, that doesn’t mean they have to win your vote. They just have to mean that they have to remove your vote from supporting their main competition. They can do that via sowing apathy or divison or by changing the structure of the voting process through gerrymandering and other tactics that any dedicated volunteer can do if they are willing to slog under the assumption that what they are doing is ethically sound “payback”. The fact is that these voting systems do not support the will of a majority and both established parties have benefited from that historically… But Republicans stopped playing by the rules awhile ago and they are marketing masters.
Since Republicans have basically outlined their goals to destroy the checks and balances of the system of government basically all they needed was to keep up the ruse that the system somehow rewards people who act outside of the two party choice the system was designed to deliver. Democrats, hoping to play the long game couldn’t out the system they have benefitted from as being a rigged game if they wanted it to continue … So anything but a vote for a Democratic candidate was basically automatically an increase in share to the Republicans by virtue of subtraction hence why a lot of us are unhappy…particularly those of us who tried to explain this shit beforehand and were told we were scum for supporting genocidal regimes. I don’t like Democrats but they at least support the Laissez-faire systems that allow leftists to utilize their power as private citizens to support foreign intervention. I don’t give a snowball’s chance in hell that the support people have managed to give Palestinian interests thusfar will be able to continue at all under the Republicans.
No, they didn’t, but I think a lot of people didn’t vote for Harris who otherwise would have
Quite possibly but I think that has as much if not more to do with Harris massively failing to be the exciting not completely pro-establishment candidate we needed.
“I’m sorry. It was between literally the man who will destroy the country and told us as much and someone just not exciting enough. Gotta do better, Dems.”
This isn’t helpful, I never said they were smart or correct, I said I understand how we ended up here and I sympathize with people who are suffering and angry and very ignorant and susceptible to propaganda
This isn’t helpful, I never said they were smart or correct, I said I understand how we ended up here and I sympathize with people who are suffering and angry and very ignorant and susceptible to propaganda. The DNC didn’t fail at being objectively better, they failed at making people feel heard and convinced that there would be hope of real systemic change and not just roughly what we have had for the past 20-30 years.
I think you accidentally replied instead of editing your comment
Someone better pick up that phone, because I fucking called it.
I have the feeling that since the vote is over, a lot fewer people are here to defend their “ron’t vote for harris because palestine” stance. Like something was switched off…
Wasn’t it something like 11% of Democratic primary voters that checked the box for “uncommitted” to signify that they weren’t willing to vote for genocide? (Might have been 11% in one state, I’m not sure, but the ‘uncommiteds’ were a big enough number for MSM reporting.)
Seems to me like Dems had plenty of time and motivation to change their political stance on the issue.
I notice that some of them have pivoted to “this was completely the fault of the Democrats, the voters are blameless” messaging, which this would fall under.
Messages of urgent concern about what we need to do for the Palestinians have completely evaporated though, yes. It turns out that it began and ended with not voting for the Democrats, and now there’s nothing particular they want to say about Palestine. Good thing that was all we needed to do, huh? We really squeaked one out there, I guess, with our victory.
No. I don’t know why you aren’t seeing them but they are very much still there. This is just yet another effort to blame the people instead of the party that couldn’t get people to vote for it. Which is their entire job.
I remember in the weeks following the announcement that Biden would step down and endorse Harris people dug into her voting record and revealed that she was one of the furthest left-leaning members of the Senate, up there with Sanders and Warren.
Now that she’s lost the election all of a sudden so-called “progressives” are claiming she lost because she was basically a Republican.
The GOP’s strategy was clearly to promote voter apathy and drive down turnout for people more likely to vote Harris, and it worked. Trump finally won the popular vote- and he did so with about 6 million fewer votes than what Biden got in 2020.
Far too many progressive, and maybe even moderate Dems and independents, really believed all the nonsense. “Both sides are the same”, “you’re vote doesn’t matter”, “there’s no way Trump can win”, “Bidenomics is totally what caused the global inflation and we are just going to ignore that post-pandemic inflation in the US was the lowest of any developed economy”, “she’s a cop”, etc. Heck, maybe there is even some misogynist or racism on the left that may have hurt Harris. And now instead of just trying to dig out way out of decades of neoliberalism we’re just escalating to fascism.
I blame everyone. The GOP and Trump of course. The billionaires (the loud ones like Musk and Bezos, but also the quieter ones like Thiel and the Walton family). Russia of course. The spineless politicians and government officials who refused to put Trump behind bars. The DNC for the shenanigans they’ve been pulling with primaries for the past several elections and for planning to run a walking corpse in 2024 instead of setting up a real successor to Biden. All of the people who voted for Trump and the other Republicans. All of the left-leaning folk who didn’t turn out for Harris. The decades of the GOP undermining democracy (really starting with pardoning Nixon, the whole Regan administration, the hanging chads in 2000, Mitch McConnell taking over the courts, etc).
The only comfort I have is that I know I did my part and voted.
She was one of the furthest left Senators. Then she ran to the right as hard as possible during her short campaign. She took progressives and leftists for granted and lost.
I keep seeing that claimed everywhere. I’ll admit that I make an effort NOT to consume political ads (or ads in general really) but I don’t remember anything right-leaning from Harris outside of supporting the status quo for Israel and Palestine.
I did hear ads on the radio in stores supporting making billionaires pay their fair share and lowering taxes for the working class. Ads attacking Trump for giving tax breaks to billionaires and wanting to cut Medicare and social security benefits. Ads supporting pro-choice and attacking Republicans for wanting to ban abortion. It’s possible that there were ads for different demographics, but the same radio station was also airing right-wing ads with incredible amounts of transphobia- dead naming and misgendering individuals and claiming they were criminals coming for your children.
It’s entirely possible I missed something because there’s just way too much election content for one person to read, but I really have no clue where the narrative of the right turn is coming from.
Are Dems now gonna say Jon Stewart is propaganda?
This “blaming Palestine supporters” narrative seems really weird tbh, because if anyone looks offline, they were NEVER the majority. But politicians blaming them is pretty convenient for keeping their AIPAC funding…
The Democratic party has adopted the majority of detestable border polices from Trump’s 2016 campaign.
In 2016 there were appeals to voters to have compassion for the DACA cohort, but now the only discussion is about being tough on the border (and ignore human rights treaties about asylum claims at the same time).
Admittedly, they didn’t engage in family separation or forced sterilization like the Trump administration, but they shifted hard right on immigration, like many other developed countries in the last few years.
She also sought endorsements from Republicans who supported George Bush lying to the US to get 4,000 Americans killed. She tied the party line on a victorious economy while people are still struggling. And no a tax break isn’t going to make my rent go down or groceries cost less.
I haven’t seen any data on it yet. But I also would not be surprised to find out people believe she doesn’t matter for abortion because of state protections being enacted.
At the end of the day the message was she wouldn’t do more than inconvenience the wealthy, she wouldn’t work on the cost of living crisis, she likes the Republicans, wants to go hard-line on immigration, and is staunchly pro Israel.
4000 Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Kurds and Syrians.
Yup but the average American really doesn’t care about that.
I would blame any Democratic candidate if they DIDN’T try to pry whatever “moderate” Republicans are left from the party. As long as they don’t compromise on policy in order to do so. Once again in asking: where did Harris do that?
Also if you’re trying to use the >4,000 US Soldiers who died in the Iraq war to make some sort of emotional appeal it’s not working. The fact that you’re going with the 4,000 number and not bringing up the 200,000 Iraqi civilians who died is a pretty strong indicator that you don’t actually care about human lives.
The economy recovered from Covid better than any other industrialized country. And you’re absolutely correct that tax breaks don’t lower prices… I have no idea what compelled you to say that. Tax breaks for the working class would grant them more income to purchase goods and services- the policies aimed at reducing inflation and in particular lowering the prices would be different policies. Things like having a strong FTC that rejects the mergers between the handful of grocery stores chains. Increasing the minimum wage. I could go on and on but really anyone informed knows that Harris’s policies would be better for the working class while Trump’s policies are going to be benefit the elitely wealthy and crush everyone else.
The thing on abortion is pretty wild speculation, and is really crazy when you consider that women have already started dying in states that have banned abortions. Like you in waiting for data, but unless we see a bunch of ballots voting for Dems in state and local elections and and either abstaining or voting for Trump, this isn’t a valid explanation.
“At the end of the day the message was… (A bunch of Republican talking points)” Isn’t answering my initial question of what the Harris campaign did to turn right. Seems like you’re just continuing to parrot Republican talking points on what they want people to think about the Harris campaign rather than living in reality.
She compromised on border policy, bragged about having a Glock, told Palestinian protesters to shut up, was a prosecutor with a spotty progressive record, and insisted that CPI and stock prices are good economic indicators for working people when the average house price is far outside the range of anyone without an advanced degree.
She also changed her stance on fracking in an attempt yo appeal to voters in Pennsylvania.
She didn’t campaign on marijuana legalization, criminal justice reform, compassionate border policies, climate justice, increasing Union membership, student debt relief, or offer a concrete path towards enshrining Roe into law. Most of these have overwhelmingly support on both sides, but she didn’t advocate for them at all.
She campaigned on “Liz Cheney likes me” and “the other guy is worse”, which is far from motivating (source: broadly gestures at everything).
Hell, the singular progressive policy I saw from her (massive housing program to subsidize sub-prime lendees) is the exact bullshit that led to the 2009 crisis. There isn’t a shortage of housing in the United States, but an issue of corporate consolidation and generational wealth gaps exacerbated by the huge demographic shifts towards a high tech economy based in a very small number of hyper dense cities. Using tax money to shore up the statistical risk of billion dollar lending institutions is worlds apart from something like Section 8 housing or the mixed income policies that have been recently adopted in places like SF and NYC that place the burden on the profit seeking developers rather than the (disproportionately poor) taxpayers.
We actually have AOC asking her constituents why they voted for her and then also voted for Trump. So yeah that happened. Harris underperformed down ballot races all over the country. And yes that’s my current speculation as to at least part of why. We know why Michigan went red, but the other states are still being dissected.
I care about the 4,000 dead Americans because they are Americans. People Bush was responsible for and he lied to send them into harm’s way and then used them as a sacrifice to win re-election. The dead Iraqis sucks but are largely irrelevant in this context.
You’ve been given evidence she took a hard right.
Both Biden and Harris did capitulate to right-wing framing on immigration and moved to the right on immigration policy. Right Wing Framing on immigration, the idea that immigrants are bringing in crime and drugs are straight up lies. The Pro-immigration messaging in 2016 was popular, shifting to the right was bad politics and bad policy.
The lies that are hat Immigrants are bringing crime & drugs across the border, that they negatively impact the economy, and that they take away jobs from & lower wages of US Citizens. These are fabrications not based on any evidence and what the Republican party has run for for years. This is a nativist sentiment.
There is plenty of evidence that disprove those sentiments.
Economic Impact
Myth : Immigrants are a drain on the U.S. Economy and Reducing Immigration would make our economy stronger.
Fact : The United States needs immigrants to stay competitive and drive economic growth, Particularly as our economy starts to reopen, individuals who create jobs are absolutely critical to our recovery. Immigrants are innovators, job creators, and consumers with an enormous spending power that drives our economy, and creates employment opportunities for all Americans. Immigrants added $2 trillion to the U.S. GDP in 2016 and $458.7 billion to state, local, and federal taxes in 2018. In 2018, after immigrants spent billions of dollars on state and local, and federal taxes, they were left with $1.2 trillion in spending power, which they used to purchase goods and services, stimulating local business activity. Proposed cuts to our legal immigration system would have devastating effects on our economy, decreasing GDP by 2% over twenty years, shrinking growth by 12.5%, and cutting 4.6 million jobs. Rust Belt states would be hit particularly hard, as they rely on immigration to stabilize their populations and revive their economies.
Taxes and Essential Services
Myth : Immigrants are a burden to essential services like schools, hospitals, and highways.
Fact: Immigrants make significant contributions to our economy on virtually every front - including on tax revenue, where they contribute $458.7 billion to state, local, and federal taxes in 2018. This includes undocumented immigrants, who contribute roughly $11.74 billion a year in state and local taxes, including more than $7 billion in sales and excise taxes, $3.6 billion in property taxes, and $1.1 billion in personal income taxes. These billions of tax dollars fund our schools, hospitals, emergency response services, highways, and other essential services. These revenues would increase by $2.18 billion annually if undocumented immigrants were given legal status as part of an immigration reform package. Additionally, immigrants make enormous contributions to Social Security. If current legal immigration levels were cut by 50%, the Social Security fund would lose $1.5 trillion in revenue over the next 75 years.
IRI
There are 45 million immigrants living in the United States. Making up 14 percent of the national population, immigrants are a vital part of the social, economic, and cultural life of all American communities.
The economic role of immigrants has frequently been misunderstood. On the one hand, immigrants are a big and important part of the economy. And, on the other hand, immigrants are disproportionately concentrated in low-wage jobs. Both things are true at the same time.
Other sources:
They didn’t do this due to public opinion either. Legalizing illegal immigrants is far more popular than deportation, despite the Democratic Party not doing any counter messaging against the right-wing narrative
https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb-immigration.aspx
Oh, I think you know where the narrative of the right turn is coming from.
The truth was never part of the issue. They often had contradictory messaging depending on the audience.
- Kamala betrayed Israel because she’s sympathetic to Palestinian terrorists / Kamala loves genocide
- Kamala’s a communist / all the Democrats are corrupt and in bed with the corporations
- Kamala is for open borders and evil immigrants / Kamala is crueler than Trump on immigration
Most of it was actually engineered for Biden and based on what he did in office, to the extent that it was even based on anything, and then they just did a search-and-replace to change it to Kamala. It makes no sense, but the effectiveness is not really based on it making sense, just on insistent constant repetition and on it lining up with the reader’s general vulnerabilities in terms of what tends to resonate with them. Lemmy gets the second half of each of my examples, but the first half also got plenty of play and had plenty of effectiveness with other audiences.
I did see recently some ads from right-wing PAC’s that were shown in different swing states- some portraying Harris as an enemy of Israel in predominantly Jewish areas (I know Judaism =/= Zionism but if you were trying to direct ads to Zionists that’s probably the closest you can get) and others portraying Harris as a genocidal supporter of Israel in areas with higher Palestinian populations.
Something that always surprises me is just how effective such dumb advertising is to the average person. I’m not even claiming to be some superhuman immune to propaganda, but political ads always seem particularly low-effort yet seem to control the outcomes of elections.
It was never about palestine in the sense there was absolutely nothing the biden administration could have done that they would consider good enough. Like so often they compare actions not with historical norms and if its an improvement but by a fantasy ideal thats just not going to happen. End result is trump and historical norms moving right.
Biden could have stopped illegally funding a genocide. Harris could have uttered the words “Leahy Law” at any time up to about 2 weeks before the election. (After which point large policy changes just seem desperate and in bad faith)
So yeah there is something they could have done. It’s not like the pro Israel lobby rewarded her in PA.
Illegal how? By us law? Was it not passed by congress? I saw a lot of republicans in congress trying to tie israeli aid to ukraine aid. Somehow the president could not bypass their shananigans so don’t know what you are talking about.
Yes, by law. specifically the Leahy Law and the Foreign Assistance Act. Congress can appropriate the money, it can even be spent to buy the military equipment. The equipment itself cannot ship until those laws are satisfied. Old man Leahy even came out and said Israel is a perfect example of why the Leahy Law was made.
so how exactly was it broken? I mean I know congress appropriated the money.
Their point is it doesn’t matter if Congress appropriated the money unless Congress also repeals that law.
Ah yes, picking a massive fight with the person who’s actually in charge of foreign policy right now, failing to produce any meaningful change in policy because she’s not yet in charge, putting the whole Gaza issue heavily in the news during the campaign, and framed in a particular way which would have been guaranteed to crater support from both the pro-Israel people and the pro-Palestine people, because of the type of infighting that would have developed as various Democrats and supporters felt the need to try to placate supporters of one side or another.
It’s genius. That would have been a perfect campaign strategy for Kamala Harris. I only can’t understand how I didn’t see it until you just now brought it up.
She’s campaigning. It’s literally her job to put her proposed policies out there. If she holds back for fear of offending her boss then she didn’t want the job.
Yeah. If Biden had been doing perfect on Palestine, they’d have been consistently freaking out about some other thing he did to supposedly betray the left, fellow leftists.
If Biden had been doing perfect on Palestine
Then he’d be the president that ‘betrayed’ Israel.
There are still a couple running around, mostly with day old accounts. They claim they’re being banned for holding that stance but from what I’ve seen they’re getting banned for being inflammatory dickholes.
Like something was switched off…
funding from the Kremlin
I suddenly stopped seeing a bunch of posters I had tagged as a “Russian Asset”. I’m sure it’s because I blocked some of them, but the fact that I don’t have any false positives left to plague me tells me a lot.
lol. do you honestly think there are psyop campaigns on Lemmy? for all 12 of us? lololol. I thought I was paranoid, but goddamn.
Do you know how much it costs to run a chat bot?
Do you know how much it costs to start a war? Do you think russia is a fiscally responsible terrorist organisation?
Pretty sure the Russian economy just passed Japan’s in terms of GDP. I’m not saying they can’t afford it. I’m saying that paying Tim Pool and buying up Facebook ads is a lot cheaper and far more effective.
Wtf are you on about. Japan’s GDP is more than twice as big as russias. Both per capita and annual.
I’m telling you that russia does not give a fuck about effectiveness.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD?locations=RU-JP
I’m talking PPP, not dollars since that doesn’t make sense for a sanctioned country that doesn’t have legal dollar exchange mechanisms.
What, you don’t think Russia can afford it?
“I am very smrt”
nah, just published and cited for work on power management for AI training
Oh you’re published? It’s cute you think that means anything in this context.
Russia is known to pay flesh-and-blood human beings to act as agents in information campaigns. The fact that you don’t know that and just assumed I was talking about chat bots for no apparent reason tells me everything I need to know. It’s why I was mocking you; your statement just had nothing to do with what was being spoken of, and you’re either dishonest or too oblivious and self-absorbed to realize that.
For the record, there are full grown adults who were born after my first research project with publishable results.
ah. right. I totally forgot how flesh and blood people were cheaper than chat bots (they aren’t) and that they have tons of excess manpower to throw at the task-- that’s why they’re relying on North Koreans to defend Kursk.
Yeah, they paid Tim Pool and other right wing podcasters to shill for them, but there’s no evidence anywhere that they’re targeting fucking Lemmy. It’s an absurd position given the size of the user base and the nature of federation.
How much is a Facebook ad these days? probably a lot cheaper than paying people to troll you in their non native language.
I’m still here. Harris fucked up on Palestine. Biden fucked up on Palestine. It just doesn’t need to be repeated on and on and on again - there is no new information, only people who think “vote for a candidate that supports genocide” is the correct thing to do. And that “Trump worse” is somehow a gotcha, when there isn’t any difference - the genocide has been happening and has been killing Palestinians for a year when democrats were in charge.
What short memories people have. It’s been decades. Since Clinton and before. It spiked in the last year. And will spike even harder now that so many actively voted for fascism like in 1980. Or railed against the achievable (you) in pursuit of unobtainable perfection. Only to predictably, as it always has been. Achieve the worst possible outcome. But denying self responsibility. That part is always present too. Otherwise people would have to learn.
Yes, I know it’s been decades. We are talking about this election and what’s been happening “right now”. And why democrats lost it now.
The difference is very simple. A lot of people don’t give a shit about Palestine, but act as if they do. They clutch their pearls when you point it out. They say things like you do, where “stop the genocide” is somehow “unobtainable perfection”. Like oopsie, guess we will never change it, it’s completely impossible to not be funding genocide!
Fuck that and fuck everyone who thinks that. You aren’t the good guys for voting Harris, and for voting for the genocide. You aren’t the good guys for voting for Trump and for voting for the genocide.
Aaaah yes. More childishness. Everyone who isn’t you etc doesn’t care. Yes. You’ll get a lot accomplished with that BS. Like playing a part in getting a fascist elected. Muddying the waters and demotivating others with hyperbolic and false statements of “ThEy’Re ThE sAmE!” or “GeNoCiDe JoE/hArRiS!”. But you’re a special boy/girl. You’re riteous and correct. Everything is simple black and white. You and you alone see the simple black and white solutions no one else can. We were all pretending to care when we told you that BS would be counterproductive and even backfire and that we needed solidarity till after the election.
But hey, trump is all worth it for you to keep your imagined purity and sense of superiority. Good job!
If everything isn’t black and white, why isn’t Biden / Harris stopping the genocide right now? To punish these bad voters that didn’t vote for them?
Again, you try to be sarcastic, you try to be funny, and yet again you prove - you don’t give two shits about Palestine. You say “solidarity was needed” when your policies were the ones that were being supported, and mine weren’t. It is easy to say that when you get what you want you know.
Not actively abetting a genocide is unobtainable perfection? How do you people look at yourselves in the mirror?
While I’m sure everyone would enjoy living in the reality you imagine yourself to inhabit. Where the hell have you been. They elected an outright fascist that said Israel needs to finish the job. Who appointed an ambassador that said there’s no such thing as Palestine.
Yes it was always unobtainable. This is your daily reality check. Come back to us. I’m not saying that it’s not b*******, sick or disappointing. Just said it’s reality and that you need to engage with it
Honestly I have no idea. It’s comic book cartoonish evil, plain to see. And yet, seems like it’s impossible for them to get it through their heads - votes for democrats were votes for murders to continue. Status quo isn’t great when it is “let’s kill all Palestinians” already. It’s not “perfection”. A candidate supporting it is “deplorable”, not “imperfect”.
What part of there’s no such thing as Palestinians don’t you get?
“Trump worse” is somehow a gotcha, when there isn’t any difference
The only way you can reach this conclusion is through intellectual dishonesty.
Okay, show me how the two candidates are worse or better in the long term.
Candidate A is letting genocide happen, sends weapons, doesn’t listen to the voters. Result is many dead people, many starving people and in 5 years - no Palestine.
Candidate B is letting genocide happen and encouraging it in speeches. Sends weapons. Result is many dead people, many starving people and in 4 years - no Palestine.
It’s the same shit. Result is - no Palestine. No Palestinians. No matter if democrats win or republicans do. So yeah, they are exactly the same.
The only arguments democrats have is either copium (that Harris would somehow stop it) which is proven to be false by the fact that they lost the election and don’t have to worry about looking bad and they still send shit to Israel and support the genocide with weapons. Or that you should vote for them despite your views and despite them not earning your vote - to which I can tell you to vote Trump because he too didn’t do what you want him to do, so you should be fine with that.
I don’t think most people who really cared about Palestine voted Trump, and I also don’t think they were anywhere close to deciding the election anyway.
What’s the point of this smugposting exactly?
Manufacturing concensus.
They get to feel smugly righteous from it, that’s all.
Projection much?
Question. Would Harris have done better if she had a more tough stance on Isreal? Like what votes would she have lost if she committed to ending the genicide? The Arab and Muslim coalitions at the DNC told them that the Muslim and Arab vote was at risk if the Biden administration didn’t change course and that Harris would lose their support if she didn’t come out with a concrete plan to end the genicide…
In my opinion it was a huge mistake to back Isreal in this election. It’s not like zionest or evangelical Christians were going to vote blue anyways. Why turn your back on millions of voters in swing states for genicide. Total head scratcher of a decision. Biden nor Harris said they’d work towards a two state solution or allow the UN to enforce and demiliterize both sides. The most support I heard from either was the day before the election. Harris said she’d seek a ceasefire but that was it.
Voting is inherently transactional. The Arab and Muslim Americans told the party what they needed to do to secure their support and the party said no.
I (hate and) understand that the reason is geopolitics and CENTCOM military power projection in the region, but it’s still bad politics to not commit to a pretense of trying.
Especially as NATO allies and economic partners are breaking from the US position on Palestine - and now the Saudis are talking no normalization with Israel without Palestinian statehood.
Last year the kingdom was in the process of negotiating a historic normalization agreement with Israel but recently said that was “off the table” without Palestinian statehood, a demand rejected by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
I (hate and) understand that the reason is geopolitics and CENTCOM military power projection in the region, but it’s still bad politics to not commit to a pretense of trying.
Essentially, you’re saying that the genocide is settled and that american elections are exclusively performative (at the very least when it comes to international policy). You must then agree with me that the US is not a democracy, and that the US as we know it is a force for evil in the world?
It’s becoming more obvious as the data is on who didn’t vote that the far left of the party gave up on the party. The campaign didn’t push any left ideals and 10 million of their critical voters said theyve had enough with having two right wing parties. Trump only gained about 500k voters that left the dems for him. I’m guessing those are the racist and misogynist that the DNC is trying to pin the blame on. Keep running right politics and this will be the results going forward.
Well done left wingers, your moral purity has pushed America right again.
Not talking purity.
Voting is inherently transactional.
When 20 million registered voters sit out elections is a problem with the system.
Lol and where was it trump said he’d withhold weapons from Israel again? These voters are clearly choads.
They would’ve lost the LGBTQ vote if they made a hard course correction against the only LGBTQ friendly country in the middle and condemned all those queer people to die.
A rock and a hard place.
What LGBTQ community have you been talking to? I find that hard to believe
I lurk the subreddit from time to time. Keeps me from thinking queer people are batshit insane when it’s just Lemmy that’s batshit.
I don’t really buy that the “leftists sank kamala” narrative is accurate. There’s just two Americas and one is bigger than the other.
It’s not. The Harris campaign made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of at least a +6 points gain. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with Liz Cheney and having the most lethal Military. That single policy change would have secured her the swing states needed to win the election.
I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign to earn votes to win. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
Quote
Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
Quotes
In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
Quotes
- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
Quotes
Quotes
Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
I feel like the leftists not voting for Kamala would be more likely to sit home and not vote at all. Which would line up pretty well with the shitty leftist turnout.
How do you explain the drop in the dem vote between 2020 and 2024 then?
Massive consumer price inflation, mostly
Uh, COVID-19? When Trump was president?
Uh, wut? That’s your whole explanation?
To elaborate, COVID-19 was absolutely impossible to ignore. It made everyone feel miserable, and it got them to turn out to vote for Biden.
This year? No such disaster shoving its way into people’s lives. Out of sight, out of mind.
I don’t think Lemmy people grasp how insulated/isolated most ‘swing’ or ‘sometimes’ voters are. They know tiny nuggets of politics that are fed to them through social feeds or whatever, and COVID-19 was like a bulldozer mowing through their house. Ironically, it got people active.
Its going to be interesting seeing the Republicans do their batshit policies, as people REALLY hate having their bottle taken away (“bottle” in this case being the ACA, prices of goods, abortion access, etc.)
The United States just needs a reminder of just how bad things can be. They’ll learn if you keep hitting them hard enough…
This sums it up for me in 5 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0eq7VNCcYY
Lol the downvotes? Let’s see, the full context here…
“Basically, there really is no such thing as — I need to be careful about saying this, because people will really get upset — there’s really no such thing as a Palestinian,” Huckabee said at a 2008 campaign stop in Massachusetts while speaking to two Orthodox Jewish men. “There’s not.”
In response to a question from one of the men about the possibility of a Palestinian state existing outside of Israel, Huckabee said he believed this was the preferable option.
“You have Arabs and Persians,” Huckabee continued at the 2008 appearance. “And there’s such complexity in that. But there’s really no such thing [as a Palestinian state]. That’s been a political tool to try and force land away from Israel.”
Doesn’t matter. Sitting Democrats don’t care about the Palestinians. We all saw the delays and empty promises to do anything at all. And the Democrats really didn’t have much else of a platform to offer. That is why dem voters didn’t show up.
There is a difference between doing nothing and making it worse
We all saw the delays and empty promises to do anything at all.
They straight-up lied about the 30-day deadline for humanitarian aid. I mean we knew it was a lie when it was announced, but at this point I feel like they are openly insulting everyone who gives a shit about Palestinians.
Good point, we should elect a fascist dictator and abolish democracy forever. Then the Democrats will HAVE to prepare a better platform for 2028!
