• Developers of Cities: Skylines 2 have noticed a growing toxicity in their community, which is affecting engagement and creativity.
  • The CEO of Colossal Order expressed concern about the negative impact of toxicity on the team and the community.
  • The developers still encourage helpful criticism from the community but ask for it to be constructive and kind.

Archive link: https://archive.ph/mVaIY

  • @Cypher
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    985 months ago

    Such a toxic community! I popped over to reddit and saw posts like this

    https://old.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines2/comments/19bq6q3/keep_running_into_a_bug_that_destroys_my_tax/kitiiqn/

    This bug was introduced with the last Patch last year before they went for christmas/new year holidays. They are back since 1 week now and i think and hope they patch it as soon as possible . To be fair its only a Problem early till midgame before you got youre economy half way working, after this point you dont have money Problems at all . I find the ai pathfinding + the cargo System more gamebreaking then the money bug

    On steam checking new reviews shows people are unhappy and refunding but there’s hardly any vitriol there either. Moderators are quick but not that quick.

    Over on the official forums we see complaints, disappointment and frustration but little in the way of outright hatred.

    I’ve yet to run across anything that crosses a line in terms of content I would moderate, however that doesn’t mean moderators didn’t nuke such comments before I could see them.

    This looks like the expected reaction to a game being broken on release. The devs are simply shifting blame to the community.

    • @echo64
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      395 months ago

      This is a good time to introduce survivorship bias. You are looking at what is still there. Not what has been removed, burried or was done via dms/non public comms.

      Or maybe you are right and they are just making up the toxicity remarks.

      • @Cypher
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        375 months ago

        however that doesn’t mean moderators didn’t nuke such comments before I could see them.

        Im well aware of survivorship bias and even addressed it in my comment.

        It isn’t the first time devs have shifted blame for their failures to their customers.

    • cheee
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      75 months ago

      “We released a garbage unfinished game that didn’t run properly and wasn’t that good, but it’s the players fault.”

    • @[email protected]
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      75 months ago

      Seems more like the managers are shifting blame to both the devs and the community. The people who planned out the development timeline and didn’t provide an adequate amount of time for QA and bugfixes before release are the ones ultimately responsible.

      So now they’re telling the paying customers to “stop being toxic to our devs” instead of taking responsibility for their decisions.

    • Corroded
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      -15 months ago

      I wonder how much of the negative feedback is The Sims style issues where a lot of content is either going to be patched in later or come in as DLC but in the meantime something just feels like it’s missing.

      A slightly separate issue than just bugs but then again didn’t some traffic issues in the original game get fixed that way?

  • @echo64
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    5 months ago

    The comments in here are really disappointing and a reflection of where this community has gone in general.

    Excusing toxic gamer communities, accusing the developer of things for pointing it out? All because the game not in a good state is toxic in itself and really not what this community should be.

    This place gets worse every week.

    • Rentlar
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      425 months ago

      Sorry, I’m having trouble understanding what kind of commentary you were expecting.

      Leading up to release as soon as the first reviews pointed out bad performance (see thread), many on Lemmy were bashing CO/Paradox for putting out a beta-stage product as if it was fully released, and Lemmings and people at large were never real fans of being unpaid QA testers for game companies.

      Mind you, I love this game, and there’s a lot in there that I can tell CO devs put their heart and soul in. But I see a comment or a post every now and then saying “Lemmy is becoming so toxic, like Reddit” [1] [2] [3] [4] and I’m trying to figure out what exactly has changed, if you can help me out here.

      • Carighan Maconar
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        135 months ago

        None of that excuses being toxic around the game though.

        At most, it excuses just refunding it. And then never interacting with it or the community around it ever again.

        • Rentlar
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          5 months ago

          I absolutely agree. There’s a line between constructive criticism/feedback and toxicity, some cases are obvious but others I don’t know where exactly to draw it. Those that aren’t interested in the game after being let down may be best advised to refund and move on with their life.

          Unfortunately, I don’t know where to strike a good balance to avoid both an "echo chamber where any dissent is extinguished’, and a ‘cesspool of toxic jerks talking ironically’.

          • Carighan Maconar
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            45 months ago

            Eh, for game-released-in-a-disappointing state there’s always two points for me:

            1. A personal thing, learn to not buy day 1 or even before. Let other people do that, then avoid ever putting yourself in a frustrated position by simply never buying the broken/unfinished game to begin with. Money - and time - better spent on other hobbies, or well, other games.
            2. On a specific level, I always feel that just saying “I’m sorry, but because of X, Y and Z I don’t feel like the game is in any shape to be worth the money asked” and then refunding it is the only real proper feedback to go about it. Voice your reasoning, then undo the purchase to withhold the money. That’s more than enough brain space wasted on an unfinished game you’re not enjoying, anyways.
          • Cosmic Cleric
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            25 months ago

            Those that aren’t interested in the game after being let down may be best advised to refund and move on with their life.

            It’s okay to hold a company responsible for the sale of a poor product. You don’t have to give them a free pass and just go away.

            You can let them know what they did wrong, and if they’re smart, they won’t do the same wrong thing again, the next time they sell their next product.

            And any human being on the planet, when they are not listened to, will become upset and rude. The point is for any company to strive for the win-win, and listen to their customers, and not just try to sell them the next bad product and repeat the same bad cycle.

            • Rentlar
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              5 months ago

              For sure. I might have weasel-worded my comment with “may be best advised” as it’s not all cases.

              Toxicity is unhealthy, but I am optimistic it will become less so once CO and Paradox follow through on their promises. The two big ones being 1. actually being able to play the game on consoles and modest hardware and 2. mods

            • @Copernican
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              25 months ago

              For some reason people seem to experience the most rage, vocalization frustration, etc. when it comes to having their entertainment fucked with (whether pricing, content itself, etc). Companies can cause global recession or market crashes, be responsible for child labor resulting in death and dismemberment, or engage in flat out fraud, but those companies will never bring out the toxicity, death threats, entitlement, and communal anger like a video game or film/tv company that impacts the entertainment of the masses. When people used to think of the most evil company in America back in the early 2010’s, EA was more hated than Bank of America, Wells Fargo, or AIG. That never made sense to me.

              • Cosmic Cleric
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                5 months ago

                For some reason people seem to experience the most rage, vocalization frustration, etc. when it comes to having their entertainment fucked with (whether pricing, content itself, etc).

                You should never fuck around with the plebs and their ‘bread and circuses’, especially if your government is not doing well.

                Companies can cause global recession or market crashes … or engage in flat out fraud, but those companies will never bring out the toxicity, death threats, entitlement, and communal anger

                People are pissed off at inflation, the general cost of everything (including AAA games), laws and punishments not being applied evenly/fairly, etc., these days.

                I think the latter part of your comment is a bit hyperbolic (especially part of your comment that I edited out when quoting it in my response).

        • @[email protected]
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          5 months ago

          Toxic” is different to everyone though. That’s why these comment sections always go in circles. To some people saying “paradox are crooks and they have no respect for us and they’re ripping us off by using us as beta testers,” is toxic to some. And to others it is seen as constructive criticism. So when someone says “this community is toxic”. I don’t really know what they’re saying. “Toxic” has just become a lazy buzz word that makes discussing this kind of thing pointless.

      • @Copernican
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        65 months ago

        For me it’s the over representation of self described communists that take over every thread to poetically or unpoetically just keep saying capitalism=bad and then do shit like justify bad behavior because capitalism=bad or pretend to care about making sure employees get paid while advocating for piracy of everything being justified.

        • @Dendrologist
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          25 months ago

          So a difference of political opinion = toxic? Got it.

          • @Copernican
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            25 months ago

            I have no problem discussing political opinions. I hate how every thread gets co opted by un critical hot takes for the circle jerk of up votes. It’s frustrating that any post about digital media has the top comments all saying “Yarrrr, time to sail the high sees.” Or anytime there’s any news about a corporation, the top comment seems to be “fuck capitalism and those greedy greedy share holders.” Those kinds of comments aren’t critical, aren’t contributing to any meaningful conversation. On reddit I think it succeeded when you had communities of enthusiasts having conversations about the thing they are enthusiastic about. Lemmy seems to have a lot more people enthusiastic about a political position just try to spread that on any and all communities.

      • @echo64
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        25 months ago

        I’m expecting this community not to say that a company deserves a toxic community and that being toxic is a totally normal and expected thing.

        A few months ago, even , this was a place where people would talk about the game news and not revel in your average Gamer toxicity.

        Now it’s just, I guess, reddit, but worse because the toxic voices are louder in a smaller echo chamber. The people who don’t ascribe to this kind of thing leave. The toxic people are all that is left.

        • Carighan Maconar
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          25 months ago

          Now it’s just, I guess, reddit, but worse because the toxic voices are louder in a smaller echo chamber.

          Yeah I noticed that, too. All of Lemmy in fact. It feels like engagement is up, but only in select echo chambers of being angry about something.

        • Rentlar
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          5 months ago

          I understand your point, and agree that you have received negative replies that prove this community accepts a level of toxicity that may not have been there before. (To me it feels like the same level, but perhaps I’ve just ignored it or become numb to it)

          I encourage people to engage in these topics with a level head but there will be exceptions at times.

          https://eev.ee/blog/2016/07/22/on-a-technicality/

          Reading the second half of this comments reminded me of this long read I was introduced to over in Beehaw.org (the evaporative cooling section). Left unchecked, only the jerks will be left and the nice people give up and leave. If a slower, nicer place for discussion is what you’re looking for, Beehaw was where I found that vibe the most.

    • @APassenger
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      5 months ago

      I’ve played CS2 for weeks. Days of hours. Have completely enjoyed it.

      It’s not finished and they’re honest about that. Also, comparisons to CS in it’s finished state (easy to do unconsciously) overlook just how many DLCs it took to get to full maturity.

      I enjoy the game and have no regrets for buying. I don’t feel deceived since I could have asked for as refund.

      I think some of this is a specific kind of FOMO. Fear of missing out (on what could have been). I’m hoping they do enough to fix the parenthetical.

      Edit to add: my computer has great specs for late 2020. It’s not top of the line, but it has everything I thought it would need, CPU, RAM, GPU. That may impact my experience.

      The game was unplayable on my 5 year old laptop. But it’s not really a gaming rig anyhow…

    • @Old_Dude
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      105 months ago

      Its the internet though. I don’t know of a place on the internet where there’s no toxicity.

    • @Boiglenoight
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      75 months ago

      It’s becoming Reddit. Which is what we wanted last year? I know what you mean though. There is a difference between now and then with our community. Probably related to user count?

    • @Phegan
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      15 months ago

      Slowly becoming the reddit replacement we don’t deserve.

    • @Cypher
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      -115 months ago

      The comments in here are really disappointing and a reflection of what this community has become, corporate bootlickers.

      Excusing companies scamming customers because gamers dared to point out the scam? All because the companies quarterly profits weren’t up enough, is a really toxic state and not what this community should be.

      • @APassenger
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        25 months ago

        There was no scam. They were upfront about the issues before release.

        Stating facts is not bootlicking. It’s just being a mature, fair adult about things.

        • @Cypher
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          05 months ago

          Can you link any prerelease announcements that include the bugs and performance issues?

          • @APassenger
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            5 months ago

            This vid covers an assortment of the issues, where things stood, and reaction to the news.

            Respected YouTuber does the research. .

            That was days before the release and in response to an announcement weeks prior.

    • ram
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      -265 months ago

      Toxic devs get a toxic community. Why should I express sympathy for them experiencing consequences?

      • @echo64
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        195 months ago

        Yes, this is the kind of comment I am talking about when I am talking about how this community had gone downhill massively. Thank you for the example.

        It is not hard to say that the game isn’t in a good state, but that is no excuse for toxicity. Unless you yourself are a part of the problem.

        • ram
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          -105 months ago

          Is a publisher who’s failed to live up to the promise of a good game entitled to a good community? The fact they have any at all is a blessing.

          • haui
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            125 months ago

            Just to clarify: if you make a bad product, people are allowed to abuse you?

            • ram
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              -65 months ago

              Your company? 100%. Absolutely. I implore people to abuse all companies, even.

              • haui
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                75 months ago

                Thats not what I said. But I suppose you knew that.

                • ram
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                  -35 months ago

                  Sorry but I did specify publishers and companies multiple times. I’ve never once even alluded to personal harassment as I obviously don’t believe in that. I however do think that this game deserves the toxicity it sees and the company deserves to be harassed for not delivering on their promise of a worthwhile product for which many people paid nearly $70 (CAD).

          • @APassenger
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            5 months ago

            This video was released 3 days before the game released. In response to Colossal Order (game creator) being transparent about issues they were seeing.

            The video I linked is a known and well regarded YouTube contributor with a significant following. He, himself, was transparent in his testing and results also.

            All of this was out there before the game was released and refunds were available.

      • Carighan Maconar
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        115 months ago

        How were the devs behaving toxic? I mean, should be easy enough to provide quotes, right?

        • ram
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          -105 months ago

          Remember when they launched the game in a shit state and charged full price for it, then failed to communicate? Actions speak louder than words, and those are some pretty toxic actions.

          • Carighan Maconar
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            65 months ago

            That’s not toxic, though. I get that those actions are annoying and really poor, but they’re not… toxic. As in, they aren’t done with the intention of poisoning the relationship, in fact quite the opposite, they’re meant to exploit it to take money out of it. Hence “exploitative” might be a much better term to use.

            But importantly, being exploited is no reason to be toxic to workers who don’t make the decisions in return. Especially not in a situation where there are ample ways to go about just undoing the damage done to you, namely refunding the game then putting the company on ignore on whatever stores you frequent.

            • ram
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              5 months ago

              I repeat, for the last time, I’ve never advocated for toxicity or harassment to workers. Only to the companies they represent. Please, if you’re going to argue with me, argue based on what I say, not what you decide I mean.

              • @APassenger
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                65 months ago

                Toxic devs get a toxic community. Why should I express sympathy for them experiencing consequences?

                Are these not your words? I get that you aren’t advocating toxicity to workers, but you are defending it.

                • ram
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                  Devs clearly refers to the company that develops the game. Try again.

                  The fact that you’re harping on this point is because you know I don’t agree with personal harassment. You are aware that I don’t agree with people being abusive about specific people who work for the company. You’re making bad faith arguments to try to prove “You were saying this”, which I was not, and if I was, is clearly not what I intended. Move on.

              • @A_Random_Idiot
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                5 months ago

                Argue based on what you said, and not some invented/imaginary version of what you said?

                This is the internet, sir. Such factual discourse is greatly frowned upon! /s

          • @APassenger
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            5 months ago

            Failure to communicate.

            They’ve had regular updates to their blog since before and well after the release. It’s a recent blog post that led to people hoping the toxicity could chill a little.

            So far I’m seeing implications but haven’t been able to find facts to support. Where are you seeing dishonesty or shadiness?

  • @[email protected]
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    5 months ago

    This is the very definition of gas lighting.

    Customers: “This is not what I paid for”

    Colossal Order: “You’re so toxic”

    • @[email protected]
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      215 months ago

      Players: “your game doesn’t work. It’s riddled with bugs. It has serious performance issues and doesn’t run on most hardware. It lacks modding support as well as basic features that were present in the previous game”

      Devs:

    • @[email protected]
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      115 months ago

      If there’s one thing to take from this, it’s that the toxicity just needs to be directed at those actually responsible. Not the devs, but at corporate forcing the game to release early.

    • Carighan Maconar
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      -115 months ago

      This is the very definition of gas lighting.

      Devs: “Geezus folks, stop it with the harassment.”

      Lemmy: “This isn’t harassment, you’re just making it all up!”

      • @[email protected]
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        25 months ago

        You’re the one misrepresenting the comment you’re replying to in an effort to make it seem like they’re gaslighting.

        It’s like gaslight inception going on here.

        INB4 you claim I’m gaslighting you.

  • Corroded
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    605 months ago

    I’m surprised they didn’t see this coming. A lot of people had high expectations because of the impact the first game had and if it wasn’t better in every way there was bound to be some negative feedback.

    • @Candelestine
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      605 months ago

      They’re not complaining about negative feedback, are they? They’re complaining about the internet hate machine, which we should be mature enough here to admit is a bunch of juvenile, masturbatory bullshit from people that want to feel good about themselves without doing anything to actually earn that, and so just shit mercilessly in every way on anything they don’t like, because bullying others is a quick and easy way to feel strong for a brief time.

      That’s more than mere negative criticism.

      • Corroded
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        5 months ago

        Isn’t that just a more extreme version of negative feedback?

        The post the article is talking about does mention toxicity in the community and hints at it being directed at the devs but how much of that is people debating and talking about gripes they have with the game versus crude personal attacks?

        All I was saying is this game received a lot of attention and hype so I felt like this was kind of an inevitably. They were never going to please everyone.

        • @Candelestine
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          55 months ago

          No, things becoming more extreme versions of themselves frequently alters their overall effects. To exaggerate to make my point clear, isn’t mass murder just an extreme form of target shooting?

          Trying to identify something without taking its real effects into account is rather silly.

          • Corroded
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            I get it but I feel like a vast majority of the criticism they are getting doesn’t fall under the extreme category or into bullying.

            Some people might be making Gmanlives-style quips in the Steam reviews that might make themselves feel good but I think a majority of it’s just general disappointment and people expressing it.

            • @Candelestine
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              15 months ago

              “[It’s] not only directed towards our devs but also our fellow community members - resulting in people hesitating to engage with the community,” Hallikainen explained.

              • Corroded
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                Yeah I think that goes with people voicing their disappointment. It’s like with Fallout 76 a lot of the community was split on it. Even now defending it can lead to dog piling.

                People are debating in the community. It might not make for a super fun place to be that’s kind of just the reality of it for now.

                • @Candelestine
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                  15 months ago

                  Fallout 76 was also an unbelievable shitshow, and had very, very few honest defenders. Does it have to go full gamergate for you think its a problematic situation or something? Try to remember there’s a distinction between reasoned debate, like what you and I are doing right now, and trolling. Which I’m sure we could both switch to if we felt like it.

                  Criticism, for it to be useful, does have certain delivery requirements. The critic, in order to not be shit, has a certain responsibility to their criticism.

                  Now, gamers are a tough bunch. If a community is losing community, I think we can make some inferences about whats going on, and it’s probably not a bunch of well-reasoned and nuanced debate.

      • @[email protected]
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        5 months ago

        Very well said. It’s for this reason that I never admit openly that I am a gamer. It’s an embarrassing term.

        • @Candelestine
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          -25 months ago

          I mean, if you’re a teen it’s probably fine.

    • @cryptiod137
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      225 months ago

      There was no way the game was going to be better in every way, the previous game was being worked on for the better part of a decade.

      • @MrNesser
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        205 months ago

        I think people expected a CS2 with at least some of the cS1 dlc as standard (at least parks) instead we got a base game and then told there wouldn’t be a mod loader and we couldn’t use the steam library. That’s effectively nuked the ability for the community to “fix” the game.

      • Scrubbles
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        155 months ago

        Yeah I think expectations are too high, where people expected a perfect game like cities skylines forgetting that when it launched it was also a very rocky start.

        Gamers in general are just very entitled, and very unforgiving

        • Corroded
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          125 months ago

          Gamers in general are just very entitled, and very unforgiving

          Didn’t the sequel have some pretty large problems on launch?

          • @[email protected]
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            15 months ago

            Nah man, that’s just entitlement. Wanting your $50 game to work well when you buy it is peak entitlement, you should be happy your game is running at 10fps with your 4080 RTX.

          • Scrubbles
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            5 months ago

            It wasn’t polished yes, graphics were not great and people were justified being disappointed and returning it if they felt like it was game breaking

            But the vitriol is what I mean, the pure hate, the threats to developers, the anger thrown at them. That is what I’m referring to. If some graphical issues make you so mad that you need to literally threaten people then I think you shouldn’t game anymore. That’s where I say entitled and anger issues.

            • Corroded
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              05 months ago

              There’s always going to be a small group of people who take things too far once a game gets popular enough. I don’t think it’s right but I’d say it’s to be expected

    • @[email protected]
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      -35 months ago

      They may have expected typical gamers to be more respectful than they are.

      Huge mistake.

      • @[email protected]
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        15 months ago

        When they released CS1 it was in a similar state.

        The difference is that nobody was paying attention to CS1 until after a couple patches were released and the game picked up momentum as it was improved and more fleshed out.

  • @miseducator
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    585 months ago

    Toxicity in our cities, in our Cities (Skylines 2 community)

  • @[email protected]
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    5 months ago

    Have they considered the likelihood of the increased toxicity being due to their business model and product performance?

    No?

    I didn’t think so.

    • Carighan Maconar
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      445 months ago

      That is entirely not an excuse to be an arsehole to someone you don’t even know and for all you do could be your own sibling. The point exactly, btw.

      It’s how toxic people “justify” their own toxicity so they don’t have to realize they’re the asshole.

      • @time_lord
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        05 months ago

        One could argue that they were the ass hole first by releasing an unfinished game. Just playing devils advocate here though.

        • Carighan Maconar
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          55 months ago

          Of course, but that’s not on a personal insults level, after all. It’s on a professional, “product unfit for purpose”, level. As part of a commercial transaction, a goods purchase.

          Hence your course of action would be:

          1. Refund the product.
          2. As deemed necessary, avoid that brand in the future.

          But just like when your power drill doesn’t work, calling the helpline then verbally abusing the call center person gets you nowhere, and just ruins someone else’s day who had no say in the product disappointing you. And you didn’t really improve your own situation either, you feel briefly improved by being able to vent but you are still sitting on having spent X money for an unfit product. At least get that money back, that’s some genuinely action being taken.